Is your opinion that Wladamir is really good?

Some Lennox Lewis quotes from the fight:

"Wladimir has a cut over his left nose"

"If Haye hits him a little bit more he may have even better results"

 

Followed closely by the overration of another HW champ. One whose opposition could scarely be called on par with some of the guys Tyson beat.

 

He would hospitalise Jerry Quarry.

Just sayin'.

 

For the record, my opinion is indeed that Wlad is really good.

 

I don't think so. Jerry was a classic counterpuncher. Countering is how to beat the shit out of Haye, and its a large part of why he wants no part of Vitali. Jerry would get his face kicked in for 3 rounds, but look, Ali couldn't deck him so Haye probably won't either. Counters is what had Haye on the floor against Ruiz and Barrett and its why Wlad never had him on the floor with a punch. Wlad couldn't counter an accusation. Quarry had short, well timed counters and a really iron chin. It cost him his life and his mind in the end, but that's no consolation to Haye.

 

word.

Haye just presents a style that is difficult to look good against. Once Wlad fights tall and smart, it's difficult to reach his chin..and therefore very difficult to beat him.

 

:giggle:

See this is why I love Fightbeat.com

 

Sly, he didn't fight tall. I keeps tellings yous. He was actually dropping his hands at one point and throwing the jab up from his hip. Haye showed what a good defense he has against lead punchers and his head movement was quite simply some of the best I have seen for some time.

 

What does throwing a jab from the hip have to do with fighting tall or otherwise? Whenever haye would attack Wlad would just increase the range and keep his arms out in front of him above his shoulders to defend. Or step out and take Haye's forward momentum away by pressing down on his head. He used every millimeter of his height amazingly well.

 

Wlad was bending at the knees and coming down in height, so to speak, as he tilted slightly to his own right. Check it out. At one point from the top-down view, I was sure he was exhausted and was pitching over. Bending at knees let him keep his right hand cocked with power, tilting to one side let him spring out of trouble if he saw it coming.

 

Fighting "Tall" Doesn't mean that your body remains erect! :giggle:

I'm referring to the way he used his height and reach to keep Haye at bay. Constrast it with the way Corrales fought Castillo for example. Corrales just stayed close and went to war...as opposed to if he used a range finding jab and moved back occassionally to stay out of range of the incoming.

 

Anyway...if Wlad fights this way all the time there are only two style sthat can beat him.

1. Someone around his height and reach that can play that distance game with him (Lennox Lewis, Vitali).

2. A Tyson type character that stays very low, bobs and weaves his way in with fast feet with explosive short hooks and uppercuts up close.

Everyone else, unless they are exceptional fighters (Prime Ali), would have tremendous difficulty solving that style.

 

That's what you have to do as the taller man coming forward though mate, you gotta spread your legs and lean towards level with another guy. Watch Lewis, Hearns - any guy who was great at using his height and range. It maximizes your arm length, increases your punching leverage and stops the other guys getting in underneath you with leverage and pushing you back off balance as you punch. Watch Hearns-Duran for instance which is the masterclass in that - when Hearns'd come forward into punching range offensively he'd spread his legs, lean down towards Duran's level and maximize his arm length and punching leverage. Then stand up on the way OUT to increase the distance to his chin.

The way Wlad uses arm length and range defensively can only work when you're the taller, longer man (Lewis-Rahman II when Rahman's idiot corner had him using that mode of defence against a taller man) and Wlad exploited them amazingly to increase the distance Haye's punches had to travel. But when the taller man's on the offensive or waiting to exchange he's gotta try and get closer to level so he isn't punching down, losing all his leverage and letting the other guy come up and under on the inside.

I think Wlad was also definitely trying to draw Haye into leading too, so you're probably right that he was exaggerating that at times I think to try and look over committed offensively and encourage Haye to reach and open up.

But yeah, standing up tall ain't 'fighting tall' - especially not when you're coming forward .

 

Wlad would have no problem with the fighters you mention. Only Mercer, at his best, is a possible tough fight, but I suspect Wlad would shut him down and beat him up.

 

The problem with judging how good Wlad is or isn't is that we don't know what Wlad to pick. Ideally, perfect Wlad is a little bit of Pre-Sanders and a little bit of Post-Brewster and a whole lot of Manny Steward thrown in.

 

I think present Wlad is by far the best, personally. Like Lewis he's peaking late.

 

I know many will disagree with me but I personally think both the Klitschkos are GREAT fighters who would be competitive in any era. There's guys who could beat them, yeah, but most would not have an easy time, especially with Vitali. I personally think they'd handle Holyfield comfortably. People make the assumption that because Holyfield beat Bowe and gave him hell it automatically means he'd buttfuck the Klitschkos, come off it. The very reasons people call them boring are the reasons why Evander wouldn't beat them.

 

The style Wlad currently uses was perfected by Vitali and Sdunek up til about the Byrd fight. Then Vitali became more aggressive and more hittable. There is nothing about Wlad's current style that Steward deserves props for other than having the understanding that it would work for Wlad if he could implement it.

 

No he wouldn't

Guy is wide open for a good counterpuncher

 

Who? Haye or Klitschko?

 

I think he meant Haye. Haye is a fast guy with a good hands-down, reflex oriented defense. But he is maaaaaaaade to be counter-punched. Ruiz and Barrett both had him down on counters. If Jerry was fighting today I am sure he would be in around 200lbs.

 

I don't see anuthing Sterwart added to Wlad safe from making him more boring and conservative ( wich he used to be vs opponents he deemed dangerous like McCline or Frans Botha, now he used this style vs practically any opponents ). Also, he clinches more. A lot as to do also with his own maturity as a fighter.

 

My opinion is Wlad is still boring as fuck and I can only continue to hope he gets put to sleep in his next fight.

 

go get me a cheeseburger, some cigarettes and a girly magazine.

 

Wlad is a very good HW, in any era. Call him boring all you want, but there is a reason his opponents aren't just going after him. He's obviously doing something right when he rarely loses a round. Everyone talks a big game before they get in the ring with Wlad and they all end up fighting the same, afraid of getting knocked out. These guys aren't fighting scared for nothing. I do think Wlad has a more boring style that he used to, but it's not his fault nobody wants to engage him.

 

Precisely. He stressed that point himself. Haye was like all the others. Hut-Hut said it when he noted that Haye was hit with maybe 5 clean punches outside of the jab. But look at Haye's head the day after the fight. His forehead, in particular, looked badly bruised.

Likewise, people are correct when they point out that Wlad can be bum-rushed and worn down. But how many bum-rushers have the various eras presented us with??? Even at that, some of those guys were glorified head-first merchants.

Shavers was powerful, but he was no bum-rusher. Same for Frazier. Marciano was a fucking midget who, when you study him, was actually very careful about how he got inside. Sure, thats talented, but it doesn't make you a bum-rusher. Jack Dempsey????

In any Era, with that height and that jab, Wlad could have easily racked up long, distinguished streaks of wins. Of course, he never becomes Champion in the 70's, too many good fighters, too few belts. But he dominates the tournament that saw Jimmy Ellis elected as Champion. He beats the old Norton that was elected champion in 1978 when Ali retired.

 

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I just saw that. No words needed.