Is Chavez A Definitive Top-20 All-Timer?

Curriculum Vitae

 

seriously, outside of Juan LaPOrte's unprecedented KO of Lockridge, who exactly DIDN'T struggle with him?

He was an outstanding fighter

 

Canzoneri? Give me a fucking break. Chavez would've destroyed him. Chavez also would've hunted down and defeated Ross. Chavez beats Ortiz too.

 

How about you look at their careers (real) instead of what might happen if they fought (imagined).

Chavez would be an Ortiz victim, anyway.

 

Nice. :bears:

 

Hard to say...I have to first list them (in no particular order):

Ali
Robinson
Armstrong
Duran
Pep
Charles
Leonard
Louis


....That'll do for now...

I have my answer. Chavez is a definitive top 20 all timer.

 

We get it, you have such an extreme bias for old timers that you think Carlos fucking Ortiz has a better career resume than JCC. Id call that asinine, but thats not a strong enough word.

That is a REEDesque take.

 

pop in a tape of sugar ray robinson than watch andre berto. imagine if they switched. i watched the 1 hr long doc. on srr yesterday with two friends. they were just like dude look at all the guys he is fighting.

white, balding, no muscle tone.

you watch jack dempsey and laugh, guys like greb are even worse. pretty bizarre when people think they could even hang with monte barrett let alone win. the high majority of the guys were modern tomato cans AT BEST.

i mean tony canzoneri....really??

a great fighter in his own right noone is disputing this. but was a 5'4 fragile lightweight pushed around and beaten by many mediocre fighters of his day (fritzie zivic's brother who was a club fighter, lou ambers, ross, mclarnin, kid berg) every one of these fighters roughed him up and battered him (canzoneri was one of the toughest mfs ever in the pro ranks)

they all pushed him around and battered him, he knocked out nobody. he was great because he fought in several weight classes and was a tough fuckin new yorker. a great fighter who was basically the pioneer of fighting in multiple weight classes. for that he receives a lot of credit.

to suggest he could stand in with someone like julio cesar chavez is a joke. he would get destroyed. baddddly. if you think otherwise just watch any footage of him or his opponents. go to youtube watch his classics with kid berg and lou ambers.

the time was awesome, the fighters were tough mfs, the fighters would be laughed out of the modern ring.

canzoneri, ross, mclarnin, ambers would make juan diaz look like duran. all you have to do is watch them fight to see this.

 

That's not allowed. :nono:

Reading accounts from newspapers of the day is what's important.

 

I voted yes.

 

::

You are a comedic genius I must confess.

 

Chavez was like 90-0 before he lost and in that time had beaten undefeated decorated Olympic champion and fellow titlist Meldrick Taylor...proving the worth of his unbeaten record. Plus he was just all round a very skillful fighter with great chin, stamina...everything.

I can't think of 15 guys greater than him much less 20.

 

If he's not Top 20 then he's right on the outside looking in. I voted yes, and quite frankly haven't seen a formidable list yet that would even cause me to second guess,

 

Chavez was a boxing demi-god at one point.

The Greg Haugen fight still remains a personal favourite of mine. Unbelievable destruction of another man, particularly since Greg Haugen was a gamer and was usually competitive.

 

Who was it that Carlos Ortiz beat that makes his reputation greater than Chavez?

Not a provocative question, I'm intrigued. Personally I've never heard of him.

 

Tough I voted yes, that's a great point that might makes me reconsider my decision.

Who's the highest rated guy that Chavez ever beaten.


Taylor, Rosario, Camacho ?



I don't think any of these guys crack the top 200 all time

 

Camacho was fantastic in my eyes.

Furthermore, I don't think it is that uncommon.

Joe Louis is universally as regarded as one of the greatest ever and I can't recall of the top of my head any top 100 boxers he has beaten. You could also make the argument that Frazier nor Foreman are top 50. Top 100 probably would be pushing it, however.

 

Pernell Whitaker?

 

hno:


azumah nelson is probably top 100, and everyone knows he beat chavez

 

?

 

I meant everyone know whitake beat chavez

 

Oh, i thought you meant Azumah Nelson beat Chavez.

 

Also Billy Conn who's biggest accomplishment (considered by many) as almost beating Louis.

 

Joe Louis....Ezzard Charles for sure....Billy Conn?



Both Frazier and Foreman are TOP 100....closer to 50 than 100...

 

Oh right. I guess when I typed that I was fixated on other HWs that he beat and mentally disqualified the two due to me naturally remembering them as Light Heavies.

And yes I agree. While you could make the case they are not top 50, I think it'd really be pressing the issue to take them out of the top 100 altogether.

 

I agree that accomplishments in this discussion are more relevant than a guess at who wins head to head. But even accomplishments can't be measured objectively, so let's not pretend it's the case.

 

For me he's borderline, but if the question is whether he's a definitive top 20 fighter, I have to say no.

 

What is Chavez's best win again?

The idea of him being a top 20 all timer is laughable.

The idea this is even a debate proves how overrated he is.

If he'd beaten someone even APPROACHING a top 20 all time list it might be an argument.

 

Didn't you also pick Marquez to beat JCC??...another level of fighter or some shit like that...

But good point..Chavez never beat a TOP 20 or 50 or even 100 fighter...then again he only fought one that would qualify and sadly for Chavez he happen to be one of the greatest defensive fighters ever......but he fought a lot of good fighters and pretty much punished all of them..

 

Among the top 20 greatest boxers, how many of them failed to be remotely competitive against another top 20 great when both were in their primes?