Evander at his best V Vitali at his best

Can Holy cut the distance & apply the neccessary pressure, or does he get stopped trying?
Or does he just get the Vitali treatment & get busted up on the way to a clear dec loss?

 

Prime Vitali wins a clear decision, about 9-3

 

Get stopped trying!? Are you kidding me?

Watching Klitschko try and fail to put away a 3000-year-old SHANNON BRIGGS tells me (along with every moment in both Klitschko and Holyfields careers) Holyfield would not be stopped in a 10000 fights.

The result would be a fairly close, though clear, Holyfield decision.

 

Once again, do you think that Holyfield would, in any situation, pull a Briggs and just back away without punching? If he did, then of course there is no chance he would get stopped. But Holyfield would attack and try to force his way in, no matter how tired or hurt he was, and thus a stoppage loss would be possible. Different styles, different fights, different results altogether.

I also think it would go to the decision, but you can't compare fights like this. If Holyfield never hurt old Holmes or even opened up against him, then how could he stop Mike Tyson?

 

Klitschko doesnt have anywhere NEAR a good enough punch, Ugo. That wont change if Holyfields fightplan is to stand in center-ring with his hands by his side.

 

That we must disagree on. Vitali isn't a big puncher and if he must follow a guy around he is not effective as a puncher but he lands often, he is accurate and his shots are heavy (though not hard). Holyfield couldn't afford running to them for 12 rounds

 

Thanks for making the point.
Holy would try to win, & he could get caught with something big in the process. Maybe not the most obvious outcome, but certainly possible.

 

vitali win wide decision

 

I think Evander would have a good shot in his bigger days, '96, '97 ... 220 or so... he seemed to have improved stamina and strength there and he's a born inside counterpuncher... Vitali's open to good, determined close-range counters if you have the balls to go for it... no matter how one feels about Holyfield, he certainly didn't lack in that department and I think he would, in fact, get inside on Vitali

 

This is the key. I am not sure if Vitali would leave many counter opportunities because unlike against Adamek he probably would not come forwards that much, instead Holy would do the attacking. Holyfield was able to come inside sharp (his step to close the distance was a quick one and he was able to throw a snappy combination right behind it). The question is, would he land enough punches to win these exchanges to thus capture rounds. Vitali is pretty good at keeping his opponent at distance, he uses his reach, reacts quickly and, most important and overlooked factor, he controls his opponent extremely well with his left, pushing him off-balance and sideways or stopping the attack with that weird but effective short uppercut.

I don't think Holyfield could get inside enough to be effective, but it is a real possibility

 

We just don't know what Evanders prime is. Is it the night he beat fat and uninterested Riddick Bowe? Or the night he drew with Lewis? Or the night he beat Moorer and knocked out Foreman? As you know, Bowe never had a prime himself, and was largely finished after the 1988 Olympics. He only beat Evander because he had a 30lb weight advantage.

Holyfield can't hurt Vitali and Vitali lands at a 2-1 ratio.

People seem to think that Vitali not having a punch vs Holyfield is the deciding factor.

Lewis and Foreman didn't punch Evander out.

So a punch or a lack of punch is irrelvant.

What matters here is activity, accuracy, variety and a good jab and a good chin.

Holyfields best bet is a solid, relentless body attack. All Vitali has to do is abuse him with those triple jabs and mix in some of those right hands.

 

I think Evander's skills are being badly undersold here

 

Holyfield never fought anyone as big and as awkward as Vitali. Bowe and Lewis is as close as they get in terms of size, and Vitali is probably a half-step ahead of Bowe in terms of natural strength and size.

Holy went 1-3-1 with those two guys. By rights, it is 1-4.

It's the activity and variety that will do for Holyfield in the end.

And, if he has one of his "bad heart/bad prophet" nights....well......think about it.

 

So are Vitali's though.

And Holyfield was hurt by lesser fighters. Outskilled by lesser fighters and suckered into clinches and wars by lesser fighters.

Vitali would have him falling short and those counters would add up.

 

those guys were more technically skilled than Vitali

who's in the "size minefield" now?

 

Evander is a heavyweight....and must be judged as such.....blah blah blah....etc.

The sheer unorthodoxy of Vitali Klitschko would bother Evander.

It's a simple simple formula: size+jab+adequate power+chin= problems for Evander.

 

Opponent 10 times more skilled and courageous than any previous victim = serious problems for Vitali

Vitali has loads of flaws, defensively, that could clearly be exploited by a good, hungry fighter... he hasn't fought anyone like that... Adamek was a good fighter, but hardly any great shakes as a heavyweight, so don't even go there... Holyfield would have knocked Adamek out... Hell, Adamek would have trouble with him RIGHT NOW

 

Holyfield isn't any more courageous than Sanders. This is the sort of shit that fucks me right off. Sanders walked forward throwing bombs. He also demonstrated no shortage of skill, laying traps. Nothing worked for him, but he tried everything, single bombs after letting Vitali lead, two-handed salvos.

Sure, he's no Holyfield, but he's no dumber or any less brave than Holyfield.

What fucks me off further is that if people were bothered to look at it, they would see that, collectively, Vitali has passed an awful lot of small, single tests over his career. He's fought and come through just about every single style.We can't even comprehensively say that he "failed" the Lewis test. He lost, sure, but it was a fight he was more than IN.

Holyfield, surely, would encompass many of these styles and qualities in the same fighter in the same fight. But he also himself lacks certain things....like size, like innate, natural strength and power. He spent HUGE parts of his first fight with Lewis covering up, trying to survive. People forget further that Lewis ALLOWED him back into it. Vitali doesn't do that. He NEVER gives a sucker an even break. Nobody is better at getting a guy hurt and then keeping him there. Sure, Lewis was a better finisher, harder hitter. But if Lewis didn't get you hurt.....:dunno: he found himself in a Mercer situation, or a Holyfield situation, or a Mavrovic situation.

For Vitali, If anything, his constant, heavy-handed arm-punches are an advantage. Lewis was scared to go all out and end it. Vitali doesn't have that problem. He has a cruise gear. He just keeps meting out the same steady dosage. For Bowe, it was all or nothing. Same with Tyson. Holyfield thrives on that stuff because the other guy inevitably stops to catch his wind and Holy works his way back in.

I've seen Holyfield struggle too often with guys like Czyz or Ruiz or Cooper or Bean or Bowe or Lewis or Qawi.

 

Dude, Sanders was a journeyman bum... he's not anywhere NEAR Holyfield's class... you always bring that fight up like it is this wonderful victory... it's an easy win over a shit, one-hit wonder who never beat anybody in his whole life

Holyfield would kick the shit out of Sanders

Lewis would get Sanders out of there in 3 rounds tops

Using Sanders as a measure for how Evander at his best might fare against Vitali is like using Valuev to ascertain how Evander RIGHT NOW would fare with Vitali... it's preposterously stupid

Sanders was nothing

Holyfield won every second against Cooper except for that ONE punch
Holyfield fought Qawi (a terrific, world-class fighter a million times more accomplished than Corrie Sanders) at 190 and he won fair and square

No one is saying Holyfield was CONSISTENT... but at his best, he was really fucking good, and FAR BETTER than anybody Vitali has defeated

 

Yeah, Ok. It's gotten to the stage where I think boxing deserves every inch of misfortune it gets. You got a guy like Holyfield being bounced around like a rubber ball by Bert fucking Cooper, but people act like he was Saint Unstoppable, the Patron Saint of Great.

Sanders had less trouble with Czyz than the Indomitable Philanderer did. Sanders could bang, was taller than Holyfield and probably had better hand-speed. Also he wasn't a drugs cheat. Imagine Sanders on the Peds. He's not Frans fucking Botha. He's the man who gave Rahman a better fight than Lewis could with the same number of attempts.

Instead, Sanders, whose bravery I highlighted, {deftly voided C, deftly avoided} is now a "nobody".

 

Holyfield get inside and lands left hook and uppercuts off Vitaly chin for most of the fight....Vitaly will start the fight as usual trying to use his height and reach offensively....Holyfield head and upperbody movement will be something NEW to Vitaly...and as soon as Holy lands one of those long right hands he like to throw back in his prime...VITALY will know this time something is different....

Holyfield by UD...

 

Honestly, anyone who thinks Corrie Sanders merits mention within the same book as Evander Holyfield knows absolutely nothing about boxing

 

u are missing his point it is actually good 1. vitali win this fight wide decis

 

This is what I don't understand..........you got Rahman barely getting past Sanders, then icing Lewis....and somehow, from this, it is decided that Sanders is total trash.

It's moronic. It bears no reasonable scrutiny.

The man made very little of his talents. There is a difference between having talents and making something of them.

Nobody said Sanders was better than Holyfield. This is the Max Kellerman school of boxing. Shout longer and louder, claim that people said things they did not, and hope it sticks.

;Illuminati....just whom did Evander ever get inside on and land these punches of which you speak. The man effectively went 1-4 with Bowe and Lewis. Now all of a sudden he has no difficulty with a man who was the very epitome of what Evander had difficulty with.

Nobody said Evander wouldn't or couldn't win. What amazes me is this rationale that a man who never had an easy fight in his life now suddenly has one with Vitali Klitschko, of all the people.

 

that is correct this is true

 

Rahman iced a guy who clearly did not take him seriously at all, a WELL KNOWN ISSUE with Lennox Lewis... Rahman was still LOSING THAT FIGHT when he landed the greatest shot of his whole life

In the rematch, Lennox fought like Lennox and nearly murdered Rahman

Sanders was a shit fighter with no dedication, that is why most people giggled when he was matched with Wladimir... it was yet another nobody for Wlad to knock out

Honestly, the entire anointing of Sanders as a good fighter occured as a direct reaction to his derailing Wlad, who so many had hyped as the next big thing... to save face over a HUMILIATING drubbing, Sanders' totally undistinguished career was revised into being a case of "oh, he was actually this incredibly talented fighter who sometimes didn't train" while ignoring the fact that being knocked out by Rahman was the highlight of his career prior to the Wlad beating... Wlad's total lack of respect for him was evident, HE certainly didn't think he was in there with some special, dangerous guy and his people didn't either, which is why they made the fight in the first place, it was to be another easy KO

Sanders doesn't even qualify as an Ingemar Johannson redux... he's more like Leotis Martin... a basically undistinguished guy with one big surprise win

 

Make no mistake, this is an awful style matchup for Holyfield.

It's a tough call because Evander has defeated good fighters and Vitali hasn't.

The size difference is obnoxious here. The skill difference is wide too, but I'm not totally sold it's enough for an Evander win.

 

Sanders had gained about 10 pounds of fat between Klitschko fights. And that's Vitali's best win.

 

Right. I can live with that. :dunno:
Has Evander beaten better guys than Vitali has? Sure. There's a big difference between the collective talent of the guys Evander has fought and the guys he has beaten, but he has still beaten better guys.

Is this important? Yes. Does it conclude the matter? No. Why not? Well for openers we have to assume Vitali has more to offer, and perhaps more importantly there is Evanders well-heralded tendency to make heavy going of people like Vitali.

How?

Vitali isn't just a big guy. He's a big awkward guy who knows not just how to use his size and awkwardness to defend himself, but also how to turn it into an attack. He also has, contrary to recent popular opinion, a pretty hefty dig. He has solid fundamentals and an outstanding jab. He is legitimately two-fisted. His chin is rock-solid. He will carry anywhere from a 45lb to a 30lb weight advantage and 6 inches in height. He has a better reach and can throw up to 600 punches a fight, easy. He does go to the body and he has short punches. His hand-speed is well above the average, especially for such a heavy man. He does not rely on or seek a 1 punch KO and has never punched himself out going for one- a fatal flaw that Bowe nearly committed in the 10th round of his first fight with Evander.

All I am saying is that if I am a bookmaker on the strip, I think long and hard before I write the odds for this one.

I'm not saying that Evander can't win. There are keys to an Evander victory. Specifically he can steal rounds by keeping his hands up, flurrying late, moving and picking off clean single shots to the mid-riff. He can bring his fat nut up on the inside and cause facial damage. He can bang away with both hands to the body and try to slide out of clinches. It can be done, sure.

One common trait with the guys Vitali has been fighting is the amount of energy they burn. Kevin Johnson played hide and seek and was breathing heavily at the end of it. Adamek employed a mobile, sniping approach and seemed to be burning a lot of gas doing it. Arreola was getting scant reward for the yards he was advancing and the gas he was burning to do it.

Of course Holyfield is better than these guys. But the general philosophy should hold- that the smaller man will do more work to get inside. Its basically tripple-jobbing. He has to travel to work, then do the work, then travel back out of work.

One of Evanders favourite excuses always was..."Oh, I got tired"....that was his excuse in the Lewis fight, the first time. Same with Bowe the third time.

Who is to say the guy doesn't get tired and start getting clipped, knocked out of his rhythm by the sheer volume of heavy, thudding leather???

I always ear-marked Ken Norton, Joe Frazier and Evander Holyfield as being three of the best big-name fighters that Vitali would always do very well against. Style is the key issue here, style and size. Evander would never be bothered with the size alone, he showed that with Valuev. Nothing kills a smaller man like disrupting his flow.

It's a close fight, is all I am saying.

 

Okay. Let's agree to that, just for the sake of maintaining a decorum.

What I am saying is that the above does not alone conclude the debate.

We have to assume that Vitali, just like when he fought Lewis on 10 days notice, is going to show that he can cut it at the highest level.

My point is this: Lewis is to Vitali what Vitali could be to Holyfield.

Lewis had the physique to match Vitali. Holyfield does not.

Furthermore, as alluded to, if Vitali really didn't have what it took to hang at this level, it would have taken 60 seconds and not 6 full rounds vs Lewis for this to be discovered.

We know he's got the chin. We know he's got at least some skills. We know he's got the guts.