The 2015-16 World Fitba Thread!

cdogg, who has the better record head to head between England and the USA at the World Cup?

:stir:

 

Well I'm disagREED. Give enough home grown players the chance to play at a high level alongside good players, in europe on a big stage, etc and many more will mature into players capable of competing at that level. The huge influx of bought-in foreigners is a symptom of the insane increase in TV money.

 

It's easier to get a cap for England than it is to start for Chelski or Citeh. ::

 

Right. Lets say the big teams all still had 5 or 6 English players in their Champion's league line ups - irrespective of whether they'd be better teams or worse teams the English players in question would become better players and the national team would be better as a result

 

Quite possibly but they are only interested in short terms results. The oil clubs obviously don't give a fuck whatsoever.

Only way it changes is if they impose a rule mandating a club has to have 'X' amount of nationals on the squad. (and it has to be the team that shows up, not guys sitting in the stands or loaned out)

 

Nobody would need to bring in foreign players if the English system was producing more young players

Money is a big deal in other countries too but you don't see this dynamic to anywhere near the same extent in Germany, Spain, Italy, etc.

What I would agree with in the sense of "foreign players = bad" is that you end up with a somewhat uninteresting product... One of the things that historically made football great was that different countries had distinctive styles and personality and the clubs were as much a reflection of it as any national team... Now, so many bigger clubs have historically enormous amounts of players from all over the place that there is less of an identity there... The clubs are vaguely similar and that is more boring than not

 

even the national sides are infected by this sort of "sameness"

When's the last time Brazil played like Brazil? 1986?

Even in winning two World Cups since then, they haven't been any more beautiful to watch than half the other teams

 

The big clubs never have to blood young players because they can buy in ready to go foreigners for a gazillion quid.

 

Which is kind of a catch-22.

 

What about the small clubs, man? Nobody produces shit... If it were as simple as just playing English kids, some bottom-table premiership side could sign a bunch of promising 20 year olds, and slowly work them into the first team and in a few years after finishing 14th and 13th, they'd be 1979 Nottingham Forest and compete for the whole enchilada... The problem is, where are the players?

 

Which is exactly what is happening and what I said was happening from the start

I'm not saying putting clubs out of business is the goal... I'm saying that the fines as presently constituted don't amount to jack shit and do essentially zero damage... ergo, 50 million is in fact ​nothing

 

Really? You mean you'd be willing to travel a whole five miles??


:: J/K, Jimmy!

 

Nottingham forest could blood 17 year olds sure - the hurdles between that and them playing in the Man City or Man Utd first team regularly in the CL playing with and against world class players (a requisite for england having a world class international team) are numerous. The most common thing now is the big teams buy up the most promising 17 year olds and basically sit on them. The transmission routes by which a young a English kid ends up playing for a top english team are much more jammed up than they were

 

If City or United decided to play only their young English players (or even have their starters be 80% English) , they wouldn't be playing in the CL very long, nor qualifying for it in the first place... The quality just isn't there right now

Getting blasted in Europe isn't going to make these kids better players, at least not enough for it to amount to anything... The way in which kids are schooled from childhood is what needs to change

 

Common sense, man

 

Belhaven Black scottish stout. Good beer.

 

why it gotta be black, yo

 

England lost that game because Bonetti was a dreadful reserve to Banks in goal and because Ramsey got over-confident and took off Charlton when the game looked won but, that notwitstanding, this is a good post.

MTF

 

:love:

 

That Brazil/England game was really good...

Bobby Moore was awesome

 

Bad luck has FUCK ALL to do with two decades of failure. It wasn't 'unlucky' that Beckham booted Simeone in 98. It wasn't 'unlucky' that P. Neville dived in on that Romanian in the last minute in 2000. It wasn't unlucky that Seaman got mullered from halfway through a stand in 2002. It wasn't unlucky that we tried to hold on to a one goal lead against Portugal in 2004 and that a goalkeeper was able to do what champions league winning players couldn't (score a fucking penalty in a shootout). It wasn't unlucky that Rooney got himself needlessly sent off in 2006. It wasn't unlucky that Croatia showed us up in 2008. And there was nothing 'unlucky' about the massacre inflicted by the Germans in 2010. If anything we were fucking lucky to even get to a shootout against Italy in 2012. And the less said about 2014, the better.

'96 was the real killer. That England side was a real fluent, unorthodox English side with a 'proper' number ten (and another, Lord Beardsley, on the bench), flexibility to play wing backs and a three man-midfield or even a sweeper depending on the game, proper tricky footballers all over the pitch, the capacity to counter at real pace, half a dozen world-class forwards - even the penalties were pretty damn good (they scored the first eleven (2 in normal time, nine in shootouts) they got until Southgate fucked up. In that game we WERE unlucky - how Gazza and Anderton both missed those chances in extra-time I still don't know. What I do know is that losing that game sent us backwards - we panicked and started reverting back to 'type' with two up top, a big lad to aim crosses to etc. Never recovered. We are absolutely fucking miles off the pace now.

MTF

 

Sasanach lover^^

 

At this point the debate about 'stale' English tactics is clearly masking the real need for a real discussion about the sheer paucity of talent in the English game. The talent pool is embarrassingly fucking tiny - people are raving about Sterling who probably the most talented English player of this generation but who wouldn't have gotten on the bench when guys like Waddle and Barnes were struggling to hold down a starting place. I've heard sensible people claim that 'England will be a force in four years time with all these great young players coming through'. These people are on glue - who the fuck are they referring to? :dunno: There is nothing coming through which will transform England's fortunes, not that I can see anyway.

The proliferation of foreign players has a large part to play in that but until a real, proper, honest debate is had recognising the sheer drop-off in English football then the march backwards will continue.

MTF

 

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*pishing*:laugh11::laugh11:

 

issed: oh, you've fucking gone and done it now... I'll kick you in your SOUL

 

I'm with Hut on this. It is cheaper, and easier, to buy in a foreign import than bring through a young local player. These kids are scouted at 10-11 years old and put in academies. That's seven/eight years worth of coaching, schooling, paying fees etc before you even have to give the bastard a professional contract. Much easier to buy the latest 'afleet' from Cabodiastaniskhan for £2m who will sign for eight shillings and six' a week because they grew up in a mudhut.

There are too many foreign players in the PL so far as the England national team is concerned. The real quality foreign players have always added value to clubs and the league. It is the proliferation of the average foreign import, who adds absolutely fuck all that a local lad doesn't, which is causing the damage.

MTF

 

I'm willing to concede it is part of the problem

 

Crewe Alexandra and West Ham both have renowned academies but they haven't produced in a while now. Palace and Watford had a good little run but as you saw with Zaha, they get bought early and then get left to rot. We had a really good burst of young players come through but we are cursed, two of them died and another got jailed for manslaughter. Sterling is the only guy to make it through but that's because when Liverpool bought him from us they nurtured him and brought him through properly.