Who wins? I got Locche by UD. I'd pick Locche, Pryor, Benitez, and Cervantes all over Chavez at 140. Possibly Floyd, and Manny as well.
Razor thin decision either way, but I'd favor JCC... In a fight between an exceedingly skilled pressure fighter with power and an exceedingly skilled defensive fighter with no power, the judges will tend to prefer the banger more often than not... Chavez is made to miss more times than he ever imagined possible but Locche is still about as touched up as he ever could be... Close, close, debatable bout, IMO... be really fascinating to see
The other names... Benitez, at his absolute best, properly trained, could beat JCC at 140... However, the way he turned up just as often, he would get pushed into corners and beat up Pryor, I'd favor him over JCC in a great one I think he could beat Cervantes, frankly, but I could see an argument for Kid Pambele I think he beats Pac and Floyd at 140, with Floyd being more troublesome for him
I'd pick Chavez over Floyd, and Manny at 135 without hesitation. Chavez is the 3rd best lightweight ever behind Duran, and Whitaker. But at 140, it's different. Floyd and Manny were both likely at their very peaks at 140, whilst Chavez was not.
I'd favour Pacquiao and Floyd over any version of Chavez. Floyd there's more of an argument against, as he struggles with good pressure fighters. But Pacquiao? To me that's an insane pick. Pacquiao feasts on pressure fighters, it would be brutal and 1 sided in Pacquiao's favour.
I disagREED... I think both those chaps were at their peaks at lower weights... 130-135 Floyd is the best Floyd, to me I think the best Pac was 126-130 (He's one of the best 122 pounders I ever saw and ATG in that weight class, but I think he became a better all around fighter higher-up especially as he learned things against better comp I'm more impressed with Pac's scalps at those weights than with the stuff higher up (which is still excellent, to be clear here)
:atu: No man in history is ever claiming a brutal and one-sided victory over a prime/near-prime Julio Cesar Chavez
Pacquiao feats on pressure fighters? You can't compare Chavez to washed up versions of Hatton, and Margarito. And you also can't compare him to mediocre chinned Cotto. Not saying Manny doesn't have an argument for beating him, but giving him a one sided beating? That's fucking absurd. And if we're talking about 135, Chavez kicks Pac's ass.
Yes he does, that goes without saying, pressure fighting is what his style shines against. His absurd speed, workrate, accuracy, movement and not needing to be set to punch, is a pressure fighter's worst nightmare. Pacquiao would batter Chavez, even at 135.
You have a good argument for Floyd. In fact, you have changed my mind on Floyd. People always consider the Corrales, and Gatti fights as Floyd's best performances. But I've ALWAYS said that the VERY BEST version of Floyd was against Philip Ndou. That was Floyd's best performance IMO, and it was at 135. As for Manny, I think the Hatton fight was his VERY PEAK. I know, it only lasted 2 rounds. But it was the sharpest, most complete, and most emphatic Pac performance. So to me, 140 was Manny's best.
Why not? Who did Chavez beat in his prime? Pacquiao is light years ahead of anyone Chavez beat. Chavez has never fought anyone like Pacquiao - who's going to be moving all over the ring, landing incredibly fast, hard, accurate punches from any position, every round, for 12 rounds.
Haven't you heard the news, X? Chavez is nothing more than a "plodder" according to our resident historians
I think Pacquiao was at his best at 140 too. He was a beastly 122 and 126 pounder, but just SO much more raw. A relentless, unorthodox attacking fighter who relied on speed, power and workrate more than anything else. He became a highly skilled boxer at the higher weights, and a far more complete fighter. These days he's boxing the shit out of people, not just overwhelming them with speed and power.
Welcome to Fightbeat, the land where Tszyu was a bum, Chavez was a limited plodder, and any fighter in history who can throw a jab beats Tito. And the land where Calzaghe can walk on water, Froch is a Tyson-like destroyer, and Khan't is a master boxer.
I know N'Dou wasn't some great fighter or anything, but that shit was incredible... He absolutely battered that poor fellow... Vintage Mayweather performance... The Hatton win was impressive but I don't rate Hatton too highly... To me, making the adjustments necessary to stop the still-formidable Morales in the second fight (I know he was a little bit past his best but he was still terrific, Raheem or not), going through a great fighter like MAB like it was nothing, damn near finishing off JMM in one round, that stuff is really impressive to me and what defined him as a truly great fighter... Hell, even the complete annihilation of Ledwaba (whose been forgotten a bit, he was a good champ) was amazing to me... Hatton win was a great win, but I think Pacquaio's best stuff happened against the big Mexican trio in the lower weight days
Pac against MAB was like Duran against Buchanan. Devastating, and overwhelming force of natural, but not yet a finished product skill-wise.
I disagree with that, too... I think Duran was absolutely in his prime that night... He'd been around 5 years by then, had a bunch of fights, faced good, experienced comp, knocked the shit out of a near-great fighter (Ernesto Marcel) ... He was sharp as a tack It's just way more impressive to me to make battering the smarter/older MAB look like the easiest thing in the world than to knock out an overrated cagefighter in boxing gloves like Hatton
X, for the record, I would agree that Pac was not a finished product offensively at that point for the MAB fight (he was still learning to use his right for power consistently), but he was so fast and powerful that he practically didn't need to be
To me, the finished product of Duran was in his mid/late 20's, in the 3rd Dejesus fight. The 3rd fight Dejesus version of Duran was easily one of the best, and most complete fighters to ever put on gloves. In his early 20's he was DEVASTATING, but hadn't yet developed 100% his ring smarts, and skills.
That much I agree with. His physical talent in the first MAB fight was a sight to behold. Love or hate Manny, there's absolutely NO denying he's one of the best offensive fighters in the sport's history. And I think Roach gets toooooo much credit. People act like Roach taught Manny to fuckin fight, or gave him talent. Roach POLISHED Manny. That's it. Pac was born with fighting talent that simply CANNOT be caught.
I would rate Pac easily in the top 3 or 4 ever at 122, very likely top 10 or close at 126 and 130... He's an ATG fighter... The rest of the stuff, even though I don't rate anywhere near as high as a lot of boxing dudes do, is just like some gravy on top... He and Floyd have been indisputably great fighters and were long before either climbed up the weight ladder
perhaps, but I think some of that is down to Buchanan himself who was a tough, smart bastard (even though he may have won 1 or 2 rounds at the most)
Fighting machines like Pac, Duran, and Chavez have trainers who hone their skills, but MOST of the great things they were able to do in the ring was just natural skill, and talent they were born with. They were literally BORN to be great at fighting.
