Floyd says he's better than Ali............

Dude...you have to do better when dealing with me. When The Sly returns (albeit briefly) you're back in the big leagues son!

Before: Zab Judah was a good matchup.
After: Hatton, Mosley, Cotto, Canelo, Ortiz....not exactly a group of chumps.

 

Will state for the record, I have no qualms about discussing boxing with BOXING fans. I will not waste time reading nor responding to FLOYD (FloydIdiots) or MANNY (PacTards) fans. That's as pointless as trying to persuade Sean Hannity that President Obama is a greater president than Ronald Reagan.


Note: If you're offended by the above statement it means you've fallen into one of the two categories I will not acknowledge.

 

Let's look at the fights before and after Oscar at 147.

Mitchell (140 pounder, average fighter)

Baldomir (bum)

Hatton (good fighter, but a 140 pounder with only one fight at 147, that incidentally a lot of people thought he lost).

Marquez (crap fight, Floyd much bigger and better in almost every way).

Mosley (don't have anything against this fight really, it's a fight that should have happened at some point).

Ortiz (bum)

Cotto (good fight, a bit too late)

Guerrero (lightweight, average fighter)

Canelo (scrub, with fat ginger legs)

I mean come on Sly, smell the fucking roses. There's too many borderline scrubs in there, for a guy - again - widely considered P4P #1 and self proclaimed TBE.

There was no excuse for him to "retire" after Oscar, other than he didn't really fancy fighting good welterweights or big welterweights, and there is no excuse for the him avoiding Pacquiao for years.

I do still consider his resumé decent in the grand scheme of things, he has been very dominant over many weights, but he should be judged harshly given the pedestal he's put himself on.

I'm surprised you're so easy on him and forgive his cherry picking ways, given your favourite fighter is Ali. He should have taken a page from Ali's book and backed up his talk by fighting everyone possible, whenever, wherever.

 

I never saw anyone criticize him for fighting DE LA HOYA......NEVER....they criticize him for not fighting Margarito, Williams, Cotto before/after fighting De La Hoya...one year titles meant everything to Floyd the next year who cares about titles....

Cotto, Margarito Williams....needed to build themselves up to PPV stardom, they need to take control of their careers(i'm my own boss)...Cotto is still a young good fighter...Margarito has losses...who is Williams? Yet he goes on to fight Judah, Bumdomir, Mitchell...then comes out of retirement and fight Marquez at 142...

 

What's Pacquiao's resume, then? Most of the guys he fought, Floyd fought and beat first.

Oh, and Pac also got knocked the fuck out by a blown up featherweight.

 

What like Cotto, Clottey, Plasterito, Marquez, Bradley, Rios and Algieri?

The first 3 are the exact type of solid welter that Floyd "retired" to avoid fighting. All 3 of them proper welters, Plasterito looked 3 divisions bigger than Pacquiao, and Manny kicked the absolute shit out of all of them, in a way that is really unprecedented given the size difference.

The only guys Manny fought after Floyd are Oscar, Hatton, and Mosley, and he beat all of them more impressively.

I also give Manny more credit for his resumé due to him being tiny, and due to lower expecations than the self proclaimed "TBE". It's only logical to issue more credit to a guy that is highly undersized compared to his opponent and wins in the most dominant fashion possible, which is why - for example - I am still impressed with Roy's win over Ruiz to this day, and give him more credit than Tua and Holyfield's wins over Ruiz.

 

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I like how you pretend to be "above the fray" because you are the one objective fight fan in a sea of either floyd fans or pacquiao fans. I seem to remember a guy called Muzse, perhaps it wasn't you, who was a bigger Shane Mosley "nuhugger" than anyone is a fan of floyd or Pacquiao. by the way...I'm in the unique position of being a fan of both Floyd and pacquaio....so I guess I fall into both of your camps.

 

Exceedingly funny!

To call Canelo a scrub shows how blatantly biased and unfair your argument is. Canelo was unbeaten, was a 154lbs (natural) and was teh first man to beat Trout who dominated Cotto (who incidentally went on to stop Martinez at 160lbs).

Take it back and I'll forgive you.

 

Canelo has never impressed me, I'm on record saying the same things years ago, it has nothing to do with denigrating Floyd.

Canelo/Trout/Cotto is one of those freak style triangles, where some fighters matchup much better than others. Either that or an exceptionally bad day at the office for Cotto. Cotto is a better fighter than Canelo, and that was made even clearer in their fights Vs Floyd.

Let's not forget too that Canelo was perfect for Floyd, style wise, only about 5'7, and a fairly patient fighter himself, who likes to counter.

Canelo never impressed me and that win doesn't impress me. The Oscar win is far more impressive, Oscar is inifinitely better than Canelo, plus he's bigger/rangier with a good jab, which proved problematic for Floyd.

Shit, even his domination of Marquez impresses me more than the Canelo win.

 

:: the first man to beat trout. hardly an impressive win, trout got fucked by open scoring and it still couldve went either way

 

Agreed.

But it was an impressive win, on paper. Trout proved his pedigree by beating Cotto and Canelo proved his pedigree by beating Trout. Canelo wasn't/isn't a "scrub".

oh and MWS...I think Cotto only looked better against Floyd than Canelo did because Floyd took Canelo more seriously and therefore upped his game for that one. Against Cotto Cotto he seemed to be coasting IMO. Still I only had Cotto winning 2 rounds of that fight (6 and 8 I believe).

 

:: The same Plasterito that no longer had his wraps and had just had the shit kicked out of him by Shane Mosley.. Pac took the loser of that fight, Floyd took the winner, because according to Roach they'd only fight Shane at 142. Then after Shane lost to Floyd, it became a viable fight. Plasterito's stock was less than shit when Manny fought him.

Clottey? BANG!! BANG!! BANG!! Bradley (2x)? Algieri?! RIOS?! :: Can you imagine the criticism if those were the marquee names Floyd fought first?

Cotto is the ONLY solid win Pac has that wasn't Floyd's leftovers, and the 'perception' then was that he was struggling to regain his mojo after getting battered with plaster wraps. I remember people picking Yuri Foreman to beat Cotto after Pac. Cotto's the only fighter Floyd fought later and he did it when the 'perception' of Cotto was at its highest, post-Margarito victory.

And oh yeah, Marquez knocked out Pacquiao. Floyd shut him out, embarrassed him.

So basically, every single big welter name on his resume aside from Cotto. Oscar was even more past it than when he fought Floyd, and weight drained as hell to boot. Hatton had already been KTFO by Floyd and was on the way out of boxing. Shane showed up looking for a payday and proceeded to lose to "the fat little ginger" you discredit Floyd for fighting in his next fight. How did Pac beat Shane more impressively, exactly?

"It's better when Manny beats guys after Floyd does, because ... because Manny is COOL OK!?!?! he haz da shiny hairs"

People don't have lower expectations for Manny because he's "small." They have higher expectations for Floyd because he is a better fighter. He has never gone life and death with a guy 3x and then gotten KTFO the third time. He hasn't been outboxed or ever gotten frustrated & quit in a fight against a guy like Agapito Sanchez.

 

Context context context.

Floyd "embarrassing" little JMM...yeah. He shut him out. After he fucked him on the scales.

He retired after the Gatti win.

Gatti ::

He categorically avoided guys when they were at their most dangerous.

Margarito Margacheato. Sure. But we didn't know that in 2005. Floyd therefore didnt know it either. He wanted no part of that.

Judah had been sparked in 2 rounds by Tszyu. He won 4 rounds straight vs Floyd and dropped him. If people want to do comparisons, do them there.

Sharmba Mitchell. I mean, for real....the man had been blasted by Tszyu..fought a 10 round draw with Green years and years before that too. Come on.

 

I agree Plasterito without his magic wraps is a scrub, no question, but he is a big tough scrub, and a fighter that Floyd himself avoided a few years earlier. Plasterito was like 5/6 inches taller, and much bigger, looked like a joke fight, yet Pacquiao hammered him.

It would be like Floyd beating the shit out of Taylor or Pavlik, only we both know Floyd wouldn't go anywhere near a big strong middleweight even if they were scrubby.

What are you talking about? :: I don't need to imagine, because Floyd has fought significantly worse fighters than Bradley and got rightly criticized for it. Clottey was a solid welter, who gave Cotto a close fight, who himself gave Floyd a run for his money. Guerrero and Ortiz are scrubs at welter, literally. Even Rios and the scrubby yuppie would beat fucking Ortiz.

And they aren't the marquee names Pacquiao fought, the Marquee names he fought are Barrera, Morales, and Marquez - and unlike Floyd and his marquee names, Manny fought them all in their primes.

Really, you don't consider 2 dominant wins over Bradley, undefeated and on P4P lists, to be "solid wins"? ::

Sure, after weight cheating him and Marquez looking like a flabby, blown up featherweight.

Let's get real though, though he was weight drained, Manny fought Oscar only the following year - believe it or not - after Floyd beat him. It's not like Floyd fought this peak Oscar years earlier.

Hatton, again, only about a year and a half later, after an impressive stoppage of Paulie. With Mosley, again, a year later - so let's not pretend Floyd was fighting peak versions and Manny was fighting washed up shells.

To put it into perspective, the time until all of them them fighting Manny was less than Floyd's "retirement" after Hatton, to avoid fighting proper welters.

Except it's not that at all, it's because he's fucking tiny, as I've said many times. If Floyd started slapping good middleweights around in similar fashion, I'd be similarly impressed and give him more credit than I would Gaybox, just the same as Manny or Roy or Duran. Beating up much bigger fighters is impressive, and rare, and it deserves more credit than some of you acknowledge.

 

:dunno:

 

Don't take it personally......motherfucker!

 

So to sum up: when Floyd fought Mosley coming off a win of Margarito, De La Hoya at 154 (instead of 147, where DLH didn't belong), shut out Marquez 12-0, and KO'd Hatton, those were all unimpressive wins. The only good win for Floyd according to you is Cotto, but THAT was 'a bit late' .. why? Coz Pac fought him first.. at MannyWeight(tm)? :: He fought Cotto AT 154, AFTER Cotto avenged the loss to Margarito, the bum you claimed Floyd was 'ducking.'

But fighting those same guys AFTER Floyd, along with the exposed-and-freshly-knocked-out Margarito, those are IMPRESSIVE wins for Manny, because Manny is 'fucking tiny' based on ... what, wishful thinking? Pacquiao weighs more than Floyd does in the ring. But of course, the hallmark of nuthuggerdom is relying on subjective metrics like "he looks bigger to me" vs rational metrics and inconvenient facts.

Mosley and DLH were clearly shot when they fought Pacquiao, Mosley's effort was especially embarrassing (he didn't make one). DLH looked like a fucking mummy at the weigh-in, and even worse in the ring.

Rios and the 'undefeated Bradley' are better than Maidana and 'the undefeated' Canelo? OK.

Yeah, like Marquez would've been much more successful against Floyd if he'd juiced. He could've run Jay Cutler's cycle and would've still lost 12-0, he didn't land a single punch. And Pac beat Marquez so easily when Marquez wasn't juicing, right.. and why couldn't Pac do anything about Marquez's juicing, again?

You're living in a land of deluded nuthuggerdom, my friend. Selective memory and wishful thinking.

I have never disputed that Pac's run at 122-130 was greatness, by the way. I was a huge fan of his back then. It's post 130 that his resume becomes questionable.. especially so from the standpoint of someone seeking to criticize Floyd's resume.

 

Also: if Fightbeat had been around in the 1960s, half this forum would be trashing Ali for being a "loudmouth cunt" and generally hating on him for being a loud/flashy black guy.. not to mention a Muslim(!). Irish would hate him more than he hates Amir Khan.

 

You forgot to call him stupid. So I will do it for you.

MWS, you are Stupid.

 

No. If the internet had been around in the 1960's people would have had a far far better understanding of the POV Ali was coming from.

Likewise, if the internet was around in 1960.....Ali doesn't convert to Islam because he fears being associated with scum like you.

In short, fuck off.

 

be nice slystaff. can't wait for this fight, long overdue.

 

I'm just messing with buddy, we're cool. What' up Tapper! Nice to see you.

 

Nah, I never rated the wins, only the matchups, and obviously I had no problem with the Mosley and Oscar matchups. And they were actually more impressive wins than Cotto, who did much better than I expected. Mosley looked surprisingly done even against Floyd btw, surely you agree. Yeah he put forth a bit more effort than against Pacquiao, but I think Plasterito was his last great or even good performance.

You think Maidana and Canelo are better than Bradley? Really? They're clearly a level below Bradley. Canelo looked like a clueless scrub against Floyd, not even giving as good a fight as Guerrero did, and Maidana couldn't even beat Khan or Alexander - the same guy Bradley beat easily, and made quit.

And of course I don't think the wins are "unimpressive". Most of Floyd's wins are impressive. And all those you mentioned are of course solid wins. The difference is, you don't even think Pacquiao's wins over Bradley are "solid wins", if that's not bias I don't know what is ::

And no, I don't think Manny's wins over Oscar and Shane are more impressive than Floyd's, though the Oscar win was ridiculously surprising at the time. It was seen as a joke fight and mismatch, literally a small lightweight Vs a proper welter.

I absolutely think the Hatton and Cotto fights are more impressive than any of Floyd's wins at welter though, due to the sheer manner of victory.

Floyd is clearly bigger than Manny loaded, I think basically everyone on this site agrees apart from you. Even Sly, one of the biggest Floyd fans ever, acknowledges Floyd is the clearly bigger man.

I feel exactly the same way about you and their respective 140+ resumés. How can you criticize Pacquiao's, when Floyd's is ridiculously unimpressive for a an elite guy that has been at welter for an entire decade?

 

Yeah...personally I don't put that much blame to Floyd into fights that could have happened before that but didn't (Casamayor, Freitas, Tszyu, Hatton @ 140). There were network issues and some bad timing (Tszyu's inactivity from January 03-November 04' for instance).

But after Mayweather beat DLH? He now had the power to get the fights he wanted. Everyone wants the big payday. I had no problem with the Hatton fight. But in 2008, he negotiated a DLH rematch and then "retired". Cotto later admitted that neither his side nor Mayweather's side seriously discussed a fight in 2008, when it would have been best, so both sides get blame there for the fight not happening, but look at Cotto's opposition from 2008-09. He fought Plasterito, Clottey, and PACQUIAO in a 16 month period!

Some of Mayweather's opponents since then have been okay with me. Going into the Mosley fight, there was very little criticism since Mosley had beaten the crap out of Plasterito...Cotto fight was okay, even Canelo. But Guerrero??!!! Ortiz fight was blah, I laughed at the "hungry young lion" selling point. Maidana 1 was surprisingly entertaining but just showed that Floyd had aged since he fought closely with someone like Maidana.

There's a reason why people who used to be big fans have started rooting against him....we're just sick of his crap! His inactivity, his opposition, his excuses for not fighting Pacquiao and his "attempts" at making the fight (like Floyd would accept a flat fee). I'm not convinced Pacquiao ever really cared either though, he just says "me fight whom me promoter says", gives a cheesy grin and a blank stare like his IQ dropped from 22 to 20, and everyone just goes "okay".

I just wish people had started turning away from their fights sooner and their PPVs didn't take so long to drop. Then they would most likely have fought sooner.

 

I may not agree with everything you say, but you sir have very intelligent well thought out and well articulated posts.

Floyd was definitely a cunt for not having the pacquiao fight made sooner with all this flat fee, drug testing shit. Pacquiao had some blame too though ("I'm scared of needles boo hoo hoo"). Post De La Hoya though I think Floyd get's criticized too much for his opposition (Pacquiao aside). He fought decent fighters.

 

excellent post Sly

 

http://www.boxingscene.com/mayweather-pacquiao-demands-big-bucks-from-all-sides--90352

according to that article HBO and Showtime will split 7.5 % of the PPV revenue