Both Ezzard and Walcott were heavyweight champions, especially Walcott who was clearly bigger than Rocky... Archie routinely whupped many of the best heavyweights of the day... Toney, stylistically resembled Moore the most... On paper, Marciano was "tailor made" for every one of these guys, yet all of them died... You think any of them struggle to carve up a guy like Jirov? ... Lots of guys had the style to beat Marciano, but none of them succeeded... The guy was a relentless, punishing opponent who was happy to hit you everywhere... Even while managing to slip and block head shots, Toney would take more punishment to his arms, his back, his shoulders, everywhere ... Marciano beat three guys who were better, more accomplished 185-200 fighters than Toney... Toney's greatest accomplishment at these weights was a decision in a war over a guy that was nowhere near as good a fighter as Rocky Marciano
Once again, the sly one has the rescue a thread with the sole voice of reason..... Y'all give too much "weight" to weight. By how much did Jess Willard outweigh Dempsey? By how much did Primo Carnera outweigh Louis? By how much did Buster Douglas outweigh Holyfield? Let's be logical here for a moment....two pressure fighters, one has the better chin..and the one with the better chin also has power in BOTH hands. Sure, Frazier has 20lbs on him....wouldn't matter....Walcott had similar weight advantage to Marciano. Bonavena dropped Frazier twice...Marciano would clean his clock!
Agreed Toney resembled Moore the most, he even says he admired the Mongoose & took cues from him. Having said that, Moore was the LHW champion at the time he fought Marciano, and got destroyed by pretty much every good HW he fought. Do you think Toney gets stopped in 4 rounds by Floyd Patterson? Walcott was well past his prime when he fought Rocky, and still schooled him for most of their first fight. Charles was past it as well. Toney schooled Jirov, he didn't struggle with him at all. What about the 2000-2001 Roy Jones Jr? You think Marciano beats him, too?
Even though it is true that weight doesn't decide everything, neither does chin. Dempsey beat Willard not because he had the better chin but because he was ten times faster, was far more difficult to hit and knew the basics of modern punching style. Same with Louis vs Carnera. For these to be good examples in this thread, Marciano would need to be faster, more difficult to hit, better combination puncher or something over Frazier. He wasn't. Obviously Marciano was too strong and relentless for Walcot, but for this to be a good example Walcott should be the same type of puncher and/or fighter Frazier was. Jack Dempsey too beat Georges Charpentier, who was at least as fast and more skillful than him. He did it because as the bigger guy he simply walked over the smaller guy who exchanged with him. And as you have often pointed out yourself, you can pick single fights from either's record to make a case. Bonavena dropped Frazier so Marciano wins = Moore dropped Marciano and Charles cut his face to pieces so Frazier wins
Roy Jones was a lot better than James Toney ... I still think the idea of him easily beating Marciano is absurd Ezzard Charles, Walcott and Moore were all better fighters when Marciano fought them than James Toney was when he beat Jirov... I'd pick each of them over Toney
Moore lost at heavy to Marciano and Patterson... The former because he was too powerful, the latter because he was too fast... He beat plenty of heavyweights, Nino Valdez in particular
You notice how he's absent. A simple reply won't suffice. cdogg is away preparing a massive salvo in retaliation the likes of which the internet has never witnessed.
I love Toney as a fighter but people often mix up the beauty of his technique with his actual accomplishments as a fighter while casually overlooking his limitations Chavez was way better than Toney, superior fighter clearly Toney was better than Buddy McGirt Ezzard Charles got more done against better guys in the early-to-mid 50s past his best than Toney got done in the 15 years after his fat ass was embarrassed by Roy Jones Archie's career after 1950 (so, totally discounting his great career in the 1940s) was superior to Toney's entire career Outside of Joe Frazier, no fighter is as casually discounted on this site as Rocky Marciano. You'd think he was Stanley Ketchel or something. Like he fought in 1908.
We've tried and tried steve_dave. It's out of control. I'm wondering if professional counselling would help? Of course he'll get angry and claim he doesn't need it. We should discuss the options via PM.
That Version of Holyfield Would've KO'ed the Versions of Moore, Charles, Walcott and Practically Everybody Else Marciano Beat Also, Only EASIER... REED:hammert:
Yeah, but we're not talking about who got more done or who was greater overall, we're talking about head-to-head Toney vs Marciano.. a come forward relatively crude pressure fighter, vs an ultra slick counterpuncher who eats guys like that for breakfast.
Marciano was innovative and had to be. People forget that when he won the title, he didn;t just pressure Walcott to death, he slipped inside and landed a short right hand that ended it. There was method to his supposed madness. The image of Rocky as this cut-prone, face-first, no-skills automaton is a Sugarism. This idea of Walcott being some geriatric fucking cripple....do me a favour.....if Wlad got knocked out tomorrow NOBODY would be in here saying "OH he damn near 40"....it would be a big win for whoever turned the trick. Marciano may have been in the right place at the right time but so what....so was Floyd, and he still had to take career breaks and what-not to stay undefeated. Marciano probably loses to Frazier but Frazier was hurt in just about every damned fight he ever had. If Marciano can get under or between Walcotts far better-educated shots, then he can almost definitely get inside on Frazier. Like...Ron fucking Stander was stood in there with Frazier for 5 rounds. Christ....if he can do it, Marciano can, and get some work done too. I favour Frazier but its no cakewalk and Joe takes a year out afterwards.
With the exception of shoehorning that goddamned wald pussy into it, Irish's post summed it up regarding Marciano
I have read a lot about Marciano and you are correct...Marciano trained like a maniac stamina wise and therefore arguably had the best stamina of all time...however, his belief of cutting weight at all costs was borderline ridiculous...the guy ran 9 miles a day which is insane and takes away muscle mass...he spit out lean stake for crying out loud...marciano was naturally a bowling ball of over 200 pounds...and i think If Marciano had been a heavy of the 70s he would have putting on more muscle instead of taking it away to go along with that amazing stamina...he would have been even a better fighter then before
