Trinidad vs. De La Hoya

Sorry to bore everyone with this topic again, but I wanted to get honest views.

Many people still seem to think that De La Hoya was robbed.

Anyone who thinks that has been fooled by the crowd cheering and the HBO commentary.

I watched the fight again with the sound off and Tito...shockingly...and EASILY (and I mean easily) won round ONE! He also won round TWO (but a little closer).

The consensus is that Oscar won the first 3, then 5,6,7,8...but this isn't the case at all.

I dare you to watch the first two rounds again with the sound off and tell me that Oscar won either of those two. You see when you have the sound on...the partizan crowd only cheers when Oscar throws his shoeshines..which were few and far between in the first round and missed their mark. Couple that with Jim Lampley and you think he wins the round. Not the case at all. Trinidad controlled those rounds with his jab and activity.

Give Trinidad rounds 1 and 2 and he wins the fight 7-5 objectively.

Thoughts?

 

Watching the fight as it happen...I had it 6-6 of course I was BIAS(close rounds I gave to TIto) as hell....DID I honestly believe TRINIDAD beat DE LA HOYA..HELL NO!!!!! But I went along with it...:Stewie:

Did De La Hoya DOMINATED??? HELL NO...

 

I think Oscar won, but the notion that it was some terrible robbery has been grossly overstated. Much closer fight than the Tito haters/Oscar lovers would have you believe.

If I scored it official, I'd probably have it as 7-5 Oscar.

Bear in mind, Tito was dead at 147 at this point.

There's a reason why Goldie never wanted a rematch...

 

I'm never going to watch that fight again so I don't care what anybody's card was.

I wish it was scored a draw as certainly neither guy deserved to "win" it.

 

Well this will re open old wounds. But I had 7-5 for Trinidad as well.

I can see why people had Oscar winning the fight, I just disagreed that he won "easily" and "one sidedly." I thought it was close and it could have gone either way, but De La Hoya GAVE IT AWAY in the championship rounds by pretty much refusing to fight. He took some really good left hooks from Trinidad in the fight and never once appeared wobbled or hurt, but it's clear to me that they got his attention because he became more and more defensive as the fight wore on, and did everything in his power to avoid exchanges. I think the constant movement made him a little tired too. He never really sat down on punches and he himself never really hurt Tito. A lot of the punches he landed were also rolled with or were partially blocked, while Trinidad landed the harder blows.

It's the very reason I think that had a rematch happened at 154, I think Trinidad would have won a competitive but clear UD, and I think he would have left no doubt. Oscar's stamina cost him the fight IMO, and it didn't get any better as he got older. I think Oscar starts well as usual, but by the mid rounds Trinidad would have picked it up and won a UD. I think he'd have a chance at stopping Oscar in a 15 rounder.

 

But again...all of you that scored for Oscar, probably scored the first two rounds for him. Check those rounds again.

 

From what I remember (And I haven't watched it in a long time), round 1 was basically Oscar moving and not landing much, and Tito stalking and not landing much either. He did do more than Oscar in that round, though to me.

Round 2, Tito started it off really well and landed a couple of good left hooks, and a pretty good straight right hand. Oscar landed a couple of jabs that bloodied his nose, but he didn't land any power punch of consequence until the last 10 seconds when he landed a straight right. I guess it depends on your interpretation if Oscar stole that round, because from what I recall, all 3 judges were unanimous in giving that round to Tito. :dunno:

 

I just rewatched the first round. No way Tito won it. I think he might have landed two shots, a grazing hook to the top of Oscar's head and a left that barely reached to touch. Oscar I think landed three shots, even though they weren't nearly as big as Lampley thought.

So category one, clean punching/effective aggressiveness goes to Oscar, barely.

As for ring generalship, neither had an edge. Both fought the way they wanted, wit Oscar circling and Tito itching forwards. Neither was able to force the other guy to anything,

Thus, category two was even

Oscar defended better as he blocked nearly all of Tito's punches. Defense can also win a round if everything else is even an Oscar demonstrated good defense, he was not running away but blocking Tito's shots.

Tito can not get points for his aggression, since it wasn't effective at all. Just landing on other guys glove doesn't count for you (in pros, it counts against you)

By some stretch I could call it an even round since neither did much of anything, but no way Tito took it


I just began to look the second round and they say that by compubox count Tito landed seven shots. That was not the case. Maybe one half-blocked body shot more but there were not seven landed punches by him

 

I can see that argument.

For me, it all depends on what you score. Oscar moved well, didn't land a whole lot, and Tito pursued and also didn't land a whole lot. The judges were split on that round.

Personally, I think it's one of those rounds that you could lean either way. Oscar's punches were definitely flashier, but did he really do that much more in that round?

Neither showed a lot, but I don't think it's a round where giving it to either guy is wrong.

 

I agree Tito won the 2nd. Even though he didn't land that much, he was able to move Oscar with his punches which can be seen as the better ring generalship. Oscar wasn't quite able to steal it.

Foreman kept talking about Oscar's wide shoulders which he mentioned in the 1st round too

 

Agreed - pure Tito nuthugging bullshit. No way he won the first 2 rounds.

 

I can't see the criteria which would give the round to Tito, while I could see that defense won the round for Oscar. I won't disagree with an even round though

It could be that Tito's harder shots looked more impressive to the ringside than they do through TV though, that happens often

 

With regards to your comment about the compu box, I agree Tito didn't land 7 shots.

I counted about 4, maybe 5. Which ironically was the same for Oscar. And neither guy landed with power.

I definitely think Trinidad won round 2 as well.

 

I don't know what criteria you're using to judge a round. Oscar did NOTHING in the first round for the first couple of minutes except dance around. Trinidad was stalking behind a jab and straight right. That was the fight for two minutes. In the last minute Oscar threw a couple shoeshines that were ineffective but got his crowd going nuts while at the same time Trinidad was maintaining the work he was doing before.

Tito clearly won the first two minutes and they shared the last minute. No way you could score that round for Oscar.

The scoring of the fight hinges, it seems, on the way we score the first round. To give that round to Oscar is criminal.

 

No way you could watch the first two rounds (with the sound off...so as not to get influenced by the crowd and the announcers) and give them to Oscar. No way.

 

while we're on the topic of debating thrillers, what are your guys thoughts on Toney vs Griffin 1 ?!

 

Even with HBO compubox after round one, Trinidad threw and landed more: Tito 34/7...Oscar 19/6. In a round where neither fighter does any damage surely the one who threw and landed more wins.

 

Clear Toney win IMO.

Griffin definitely won the rematch, however.

 

So Hoya basically pulled a Hakkar in the final rounds

 

Odh used a lot of showmanship to try to make it seem like he was in control. But more importantly, a basic fact in boxing is that close decisions "usually" go to the guy with faster hands. When one guy has faster hands than another, it's easy to be misled into giving him a lot more credit than the other guy.

 

Oscar did a lot of bullsh*t missed flurries to try to steal rounds and then running like a fairy faggot b*tch ala Fraud F*ckweather for much of the latter part of the fight. Can't win fights that way. F*ck his ass!

 

DLH won it plain as day...

 

DLH followed the advice of his corner to not risk and 'save his lead' (points) in the final three rounds. Big mistake. It cost him the fight to just cruise on his bike while Tito piled points. Tito did NOT won the fight: Oscar tossed away a victory by plain stupidity.

 

The three criterias for scoring are 1) clean punching/effective aggressiveness 2) ring generalship 3) defense. That's it. Those are the only ones you can use. I already told that the round can be scored for Oscar on basis of better defense (his blocking). Which of these would win the round for Tito?

 

Thought DLH had it, but don't have a problem with the decision either way. One guy didn't want to fight and the other guy didn't know how.

 

I was glad that DLH lost. He deserved to lose that fight.

 

So...let's take this to the extreme and see if this holds water. Fighter A throws 100 punches and lands 20, Fighter B throws 20 punches and lands 10. In your opinion Fighter B wins because he had better defence?

 

I haven't got the fight so I can't even rewatch it, but this is my recollection too. Honestly, I can't believe it's even a discussion.

What next, discussing how Bradley actually beat Pacquiao and Rios actually beat Abril?

 

No. Defense only decides rounds if clean punching/effective aggressiveness and ring generalship are even. Again, this is how rules have it, it is not necessarily the way I would like to score fights. In your example the fighter A probably wins because he has landed much more and probably with those statistics he has been the aggressor too. (Unless fighter B has landed the much harder shots and fighter A's all punches are flicking jabs)

It can be argued that aggressiveness can be effective even when a fighter doesn't land, if his shots force the other guy to run, hold and use illegal tactics. That didn't happen in the first round either

 

To me, you have to look for reasons to give Tito rounds ... He didn't win that fight