Fighters that have mismatched very good fighters at their prime age and weight

I've done this discussion to death with other posters so won't retread old ground. My view is that Tito was a phenomially powerful welterweight and a world-class lightmiddle but there is nothing in his record to suggest he was a great middleweight. Beating Joffy and Cherifi proves very little in that regard and he was horribly slaughtered when he faced the kind of elite middleweight he dealt with very well at his better weights.

A few pounds can mean a lot to a fighter, especially if that fighter relies heavily on their power to be effective. That extra weight in opponent can help nullify their key weapon. There are a lot of examples of such fighters.

MTF

 

There is no real evidence of ANYTHING so far as Tito at 160 is concerned. His entire campaign there is a stoppage win against a very weak champion, a stoppage win against a garbageman and a decisive loss to an elite-level champion. That's it. There is nothing indicative of much, but what there is can only be indicative of him being less effective there - by comparison, at the lower weights he has several wins over other, elite-level champions.

That's my point.

MTF

 

Joppy was dreadful, man. The guy arguably lost to Howard Eastman, that's how bad he was. In an era of 'weak' champions, he was one of the worst. When he is the entire backbone of your argument for being a middleweight great, you don't have much of an argument.

MTF

 

He was probably the second best middleweight at the time. But that time was an absolute deadzone for middleweight boxing. Being second best at that time means nothing. My point is that Tito's prime weight (per this thread) cannot be said to be 160. There is nothing bar obliterating a very, very weak champ at that weight to sustain that claim.

MTF

 

Of course there is. At 154 Tito beat Nando. A very good fighter. That is good evidence that 154 might be his 'prime weight'. At 147 he beat Pernell, and Oscar, and several other good fighters. That is good evidence that 147 might be his 'prime weight'.

The 'evidence' of his being at his 'prime weight' at 160 is mopping the floor with William Joppy. And that's it.

MTF

 

afuckingmen

some of these guys are so incoherent. They whine that there is too many weight class, but always claim that the size was the difference when a guy jump a division and it suits their agenda. Classi case of eating your cake and wanting it to

 

exactly, it's absurd to suggest otherwise. He slaughtered two very competent mw, yet wasn't beaten up by an all time great. To be honest, it's a bit the MO of his career (beating up B+ guys but falling flat against the A+), wasn't too hot in the DLH fight at WW either

 

Lol, Why was Joppy dreadful? Guy was a decent champ who made a few defenses and had wins over some credible guys. He wasn't a world beater but he was far from dreadful

 

Dined out on the Durán victory for ages...

...and anyway v Trinidad, only "lost because of the ring"

 

I think of Tito at 160 sort of the way I do Arguello at 140 (although I think Arguello was better than Tito both overall and at those respective weights).

They were better at lower weights, but still could have beaten most of the guys at those divisions at the time. They just happened to go against great fighters in Pryor and Hopkins.

It's not a popular opinion but I actually thought Tito was at his peak early in his WW reign in 1994, particuarly against Oba Carr. He was a little lighter on his feet, less power-crazy, picked his punches very well. That was a very good methodical beatdown. He looked spectacular against William Joppy but if you rewatch it, you see how much he had fallen in love with his power and loaded up so often. Hopkins really took advantage of that.

Not that he was a LOT better earlier, but I think he was a little bit better in his early 20s. But i think he still could have reigned a little bit over that weak MW division if Hopkins wasn't around and he felt like staying at 160.

 

At 160, maybe he needed to load up more. And there you go. Not the same.

 

Damn, Keith Holmes isn't getting any love. He was also a victim of Tito and, like Joppy, very good.

Pacquiao probably has some victims who qualify.

 

Keith Holmes never fought Tito, he fought Hopkins in the tournament.

 

Well, then it makes sense that he's not being brought up. o_O

 

I don't think Jones-toney belongs in this topic, personally.

 

I kinda see what you mean by that, I saw it again recently and it was more competitive than I remembered. It wasn't close in terms of the scorecards but the rounds were well contested.

 

What about Hopkins/Tarver? Too late for Tarver?

 

I don't know, Tarver could run hot and cold. You could argue he was past his best (he was pretty old himself). I didn't see his fight with Muriqi after losing to Hopkins to really compare him physically in that fight to his previous ones.

In his previous few fights, he lost fairly the first time to RJJ 7-5, knocked him out in the rematch, then I thought he beat Glen Johnson both times, and then looked lousy in the third RJJ fight. RJJ looked a lot sharper that night than he did against Glen Johnson and Tarver looked bad. I thought RJJ could have won if he wasn't mentally messed up from his last two fights.