Is Ray Robinson's place as the #1 indisputable?

In the world of knowledgeable fans, there's actually a solid amount of Robinson footage from Welterweight through his first retirement

But I'm talking about people that have taken the time to investigate such things not guys that glance at BoxRec in the moment and cherry pick information that they don't even understand in order to construct alternate universe scenarios where 2+2 = 7 and squares are circles

 

Same ... he looked like Roy Jones with Malaria after he dropped back down to 175

 

Really? Cos usually we do hear that we don't have material of prime Sugar Ray Robinson.

But if you have seen him in his absolute prime, do you think he looks more impressive than Leonard?

 

Robinson did have a "wildness" to him but his approach was skillful, nonetheless.

He threw a jab so effortlessly in 2s and 3s all the while seeming to almost GLIDE laterally and around his opponent. He also appeared to get unusual leverage on his body shots.

The welterweight footage is limited and the quality is not great I'd say, but it's enough to show his skills in on display.

 

200+ bouts, including an untold number of HOF'ers, and he was never rendered unconscious in a bout (hello Roy Jones fans). Only knockout loss was to Maxim when he retired after the 13th. Same fight the referee had to be replaced after the 10th.

Props to Maxim, for surviving the elements and he deserved to win, but if we're being honest with ourselves we know Robinson would have won that fight going away if it was held indoors, and he'd have a lineal Light Heavyweight title on his resume also, while weighing in at 157 for that bout.

No, Maxim was not Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles, but he was no John Ruiz either. He went the distance with both of those guys several times and gave them all they could handle, beat a much heavier Joe Walcott and even beat (admittedly controversially) a young Floyd Patterson who was using him as a steppingstone at the time.

I do get really annoyed when Roy Jones fans keep saying that Roy should be considered "Greatest Of All Time" if he had just stopped after the John Ruiz fight.

As if:

#1. Lack of activity = "greatness"

or

#2. John fucking Ruiz.......................again John fucking Ruiz is your bar for greatness? Not just "greatness" but "GOAT". Reminds me of the time George Foreman once said "so and so had to beat James Page, before so and so could be regarded as the #1 Lb for Lb guy in the sport"

John fucking Ruiz!!!!!

 

In Combinations, Ray Robinson and Shane Mosley Fired their Shots Similarly...The "Wildness" You Spoke of, the Angling, the Arm Motion was Similar...

Also, their Neck, Shoulders and Back's Looked Similar from a Rear View...





REED

 

To be honest, the footage we have of him at ww, doesnt really support that hes the best ever.

 

Let's Not Pretend You've EVER Had Anything Good to Say about Roy Jones, Dude...

Say What You Will about John Ruiz; Dude was a Legit Top 5 Heavyweight of his Era, Defended his Portion of the Title Several Times and BEAT the Likes of Holyfield, Oquendo, Rahman, Johnson and Golota...Beginning Your Career @ '54 and BEATING a Top 5 Heavyweight MEANS SOMETHING, Sorry...Gave Away 33lbs on the Scale and Everything...

Hell, You were Probably One of Those Who Swore Up and Down Roy WOULDN'T Even Take the Fight, then After the Fact, All You Did was BITCH About the So-Called Biased Ref'ing...

John Ruiz Certainly WASN'T the Worst Heavyweight Titlist Ever, so Pump the Brakes a Bit on the FAUX-Outrage...No, Ruiz DIDN'T Make Roy the GOAT, but it Damn Sure Placed him in the DISCUSSION...

Hypothetically, if Roy had Just Went to Germany and Beaten MichalSHITski, Beaten Jirov at Crusier, and Added Wins Over Faded Versions of Holyfield and Tyson After the Ruiz Fight, it'd have Been Pretty Difficult Arguing AGAINST Him Being the GOAT...

As Is, Roy's Spot is SECURE as 1 of THE Absolute BEST Fighters in the History of Boxing...THE Best Guy of his Era, Bar None...As a Fan, it Sucks Roy FLIRTED w/GOAT Status and Flamed the Fuck Out, but he Still Has NATHAN to Be Ashamed Of, ALL Things Considered...






REED

 

Pretty sure it was the Ring that had either him, Greb, or Langford as #1 P4P

Regarding Roy, he should have just had Tarver move up to fight him for his WBA HW title instead of the other way around

 

By the way there's no case for Ray Leonard being the GOAT regardless of the names on his resume. P4P he may have some of the greatest names on his resume but the fact of the matter is that he lost, in his prime, to a guy that was a former lightweight. Anyone that is considered THE GOAT can never have lost in his prime to a smaller guy that had already lost before.

 

Nonsense

 

To stay in GOAT discussion, Leonard should have ducked that smaller man for five years and waited until he showed signs of decline

 

No, he should have beaten him with relative ease. Ray Leonard was naturally bigger than Duran and in his absolute prime whereas it can be argued that Duran was already moving away from his prime. Ray Leonard has NO CASE for being the GOAT over Roberto Duran...as an older smaller Duran beat a larger PRIME Ray Leonard.

 

Perfect sense, keen insight and indisputable logic.

 

We've been through this a million times already REED. I was glad when Jones whipped Ruiz.............and it was biased reffing, in the sense it was the first time in a very long time a referee called a John Ruiz fight, the way it should have been called.

If Joe Cortez had been the ref, there's no doubt that Roy would have had a much tougher fight then he did. I'm glad Cortez wasn't the ref, as it would have been an eyesore of a fight, and no way did Ruiz deserve to have a "W" over Roy Jones on his resume, regardless of the circumstances and the weight differences.

Roy WAS an aesthetically pleasing fighter to watch.............and Ruiz was not. He was the complete antithesis of that.

Roy retiring after beating Ruiz, would not have proven any sort of greatness, or boosted him in any GOAT conversation, is all I'm saying.

If Roy had just skipped the Ruiz fight and fought the path you mentioned and was successful at it, I certainly would have given him a lot more credit then what transpired. If he had started doing that a couple years earlier, instead of wasting his prime fighting guys like Telesco and Hall and Woods and Harmon and Frazier and so on and so on, he might have been able to actually accomplish it.

That's what I find most galling about Roy. He relied on speed and athleticism and wasted a lot of his prime years showing off instead of challenging himself. If he had the technical skill of a Bernard Hopkins or Floyd Mayweather on top of his talent, he could have continued fighting and building a solid resume into his 40's. He decided to start fighting better competition after he had lost a step (or two or three) and turned into an average fighter pretty quickly, robbing himself (and us) of what could have been.

I still rank Roy very highly. Anybody who beat and whipped a young Hopkins and Toney deserves a ton of credit. I think head to head at Middleweight, Roy likely beats Sugar Ray Robinson pretty easily. Roy just as fast (if not faster) and a much bigger fighter in a bigger frame then Sugar Ray was.

Sugar Ray still the GOAT however.

 

You're Posting Under the Premise Roy Would've Stood STILL Loooooooooooong Enough to Be Dry Humped by Ruiz, Bruh...You're Minimizing Ruiz's Worth AND Roy's Dominant Performance Over a Man Several Years Younger, Taller, and 33 Pounds Heavier than Himself...

Why???...

Because You've NEVER Liked Roy Jones, as REED Stated Initially....Sooooooo Much So, You're LITERALLY Burning the Candle from Both Ends, just as Haters Used to Do in Roy's Heyday....It's Like it's the Mid to Late 90's All Over Again...

Sorry, but Beating a CONSENSUS TOP 5 HEAVYWEIGHT Does Prove Something, No Matter WHAT You Think of that Consensus Top 5 Heavyweight, Stylistically Speaking....Especially When You BEGAN Your Career @ 154 Pounds...It's PERPLEXING that Anyone Would Suggest Otherwise...

The List of Names You're Accusing Roy of "Wasting His Prime" Against were All MANDATORY Challengers...When You're Undisputed, There's Obligations to Fulfill...Not to Mention Roy was the SMALLER, SHORTER Man in All of Those Fights...You Can Count on 1 Hand, the Number of Times Floyd GAVE AWAY Size, yet Roy Did it in Virtually EVERY Lightheavy Bout he Had...

In Hindsight, REED Wanted MORE Out of Roy as Well, but what we Did Get was PLENTY...No, he Didn't Usurp Robinson as the GOAT, but to Act as if Roy Wasn't RIGHT THERE on the Fucking Brink is Bullshit...







REED

 

REED, you're an argumentative fuck when you don't hear what you want to hear sometimes. We're just arguing semantics at this point, and I don't have the patience.

The ring is only so big. Ruiz (being bigger and physically stronger then Roy) could have dry humped Roy at will if Cortez was reffing in there. If Roy had actually charted the theoretical path you mentioned earlier, he certainly would have gotten a ton more credit from me and a lot of others. Ruiz is piss.........Haterz, Shmaterz!!!!............and that's all I have to say.