Has Canelo right now surpassed JCC as best Mexican?

Canelo is really impressive IMO. He honestly has gotten significantly better since his loss to Floyd. He fixes mistakes and for him to go up and not just whup but STOP Kovalev was impressive as shit. Then to whup the hero for some of you Callum smith's big ass...
at this point I think he stops GGG if they fought

for me, Canelo is clearly P4P. I just think the talk of Crawford is silly in that he hasn't even fought top welters!

 

LMFAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

LOK.... stop.

Canelo has not yet surpassed Chavez, Olivares, Saldivar, Sanchez, Marquez, Morales, Zarate, Barrera, Canto on the Mexican list. To his credit, he's fought better comp than Ricardo Lopez, but I definitely don't think he's as good as Finito.

DAZN wouldn't know any of those guys outside of Chavez, and Marquez.

He beat Callum Smith. Solid win, impressive win, even... but it was Callum fucking Smith.

Please, calm down.

 

He still has a way to.go, but i guess its possible. Don't think he will though, but hes still young and willing to proves himself.

And yes, i agree, at the moment, hes clearly p4p nb 1 based on his resume

 

I think he has passed quite a few on that list, or at the very least, is nose to nose

 

For some reason I've always wanted him to lose but he really is good. He has improved a lot over the years and I do think he is P4P 1 right now

 

Considering sting's colleague Joey Napoles has Mexican citizenship I'm inclined to declare him gratest Mexican fighter of are times

 

Like which?

 

Zarate is the first that comes to mind. Might have been a better fighter, but i think his resume is a bit thin compared to Canelo. Same thing for Lopez.

Im not too sold on canelo, good fighter, but i dont think hes all that special. Still, that resume is starting to look very good

 

FUCK NO.....not even close.

Sure Canelo has a few good victories biggest one being vs. GGG....

He has other good victories over past their prime boxers....and/or guys he outweigh by a dozen or more pounds.

And he has these fights lately against BIGGER guys who are SHIT(Smith) or wwaaaay past their prime(Kovalev)..

And then he has that big dominating defeat in his resume....

 

I'd take clear cut wins with no controversy over prime Davila, Martinez & Zamora over wins over Smith, drained old Kovalev, Jacobs and controversial 'wins' over GGG, Lara & Trout.

Not to mention that Zarate was much better in the ring.

 

I don't necessarily disagree and i could see why some would rate Zarate over him (and as i said, Zarate might indeed have been a better fighter p4p). But i tend to gives a lot of value to a more loaded resume when it comes to ranking fighters historically.

Edit: we must also add Cotto to the list of clenelo wins

 

the greatest mexicans of all time are marquez and duran

 

Clenelo doesn't have a single win as impressive as Zarate's blowout of Zamora.

Two best guys in the division, both undefeated, thought of as a pick em coming in, Zarate wipes Zamora off the face of the Earth.

Clenelo doesn't do shit like that.

And P4P, Davila was better than most Canelo opponents.

Rodolfo Martinez was also an excellent fighter.

Zarate DESTROYED these guys. No controversy, no Golden Boy judges needed, no cherry picking over a shop worn drunk.

Keep getting fooled by the DAZN hype train.

Chris Mannix couldn't fucking spell Carlos Zarate.

 

Yeah, but canelo never also got destroyed like Zarate was against Gomez (sure, he probably never faced a fighter as destructive as Gomez, but a lot of persons were expecting GGG to blow him out).

And whats the deal with falling for Dazn hype and the aggressiveness?

 

And let's take a guy like Saldivar: Who in an extremely short span beat: Ismael Laguna, Sugar Ramos, Howard Winstone (3x), very good featherweight champ Raul Rojas, and Johnny Famechon.

A top 5 fighter in a decade that featured Ali and Jofre.

Boxing did not begin in 2015, and what Canelo is doing is not unprecedented- especially considering he's done so with much outside intervention.

Stop insulting these greats who had to get it out the mud for a diva who's had everything handed to him.

 

You answered the question already - Golovkin was not Gomez.

 

But we can only judge him by considering the fighters he fought or were active around his weight. I wont give credit to Zarate for being squashed like a bug by Gomez, and it has to count against him.

Again, i dont think hes close to being the top mexican ever (i don't even think LOK believes that), but he's starting to climb up the list and it seems like he's far from done

 

I didn't say he didn't have a chance to move up the ranks.

LOK asked if Canelo had already surpassed a top 20 P4P great. Hence why I laughed

 

That Smith dude with so much height and reach advantage and all he did was CROUCHING all the time so Canelo could hit him without much effort. His jab was timid at best and did not even tried to keep Canelo at a proper distance. How in hell he got a fight for the title??

 

As for LOK's thread question: No, not even close. Canelo is very good against the handpicked opposition he had so far, but he is not great by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Canelo is a good fighter....even great...who is taking advantage of a weak 160-168 pound division. Had he been around in the mid 2000 and beat Calslappy, Froch, Kessler, Hopkins....then he would be in the discussion of all time great mejicans...

 

This.

 

He doesn't even beat a prime Cotto.

 

How much different is his legacy right now if Lara gets the decision he deserved and Golov doesn't get fucked in the first fight?

 

I don't think Lara deserved the dec. He was way too passive and negative, and I was rooting for him.

And I don't think a competitive lose to GGG hurts him too much, especially since he arguably beats him the second time around

 

Obviously LOK is nonsensing here, but there is a tricky question in here.

Canelo is now almost universally recognized as p4p #1. Many of the fighters listed (for example Morales and Barrera) were never ranked that high. Does that count for anything?

Of course, I understand that the competition isn't the same between eras, but this is where we easily lose perspective.

I agree with JoM that we should compare achievement only, who "looks" better inside the ring is meaningless. And comparing a middleweight champion fighting in the super middleweight to a featherweight champion of another era is damn difficult

 

Canelo is a very good fighter, and the clear p4p #1 right now imo. Problem though is that we are currently in the worst era in boxing ever (at least that I recall). Thinking about it, I would say neither Crawford nor Spence are even as good (at the very least they are not better) as the B cast of 90'/00s ww and they are top 5 p4p currently.

It's a bit the same with Joshua (and previously Wilder) but on an exponential scale. How much credit do you give him for being a dominant champion in a terribly weak division (apart from Fury who knowns how to fight a bit) ? Especially when he clearly doesn't pass the eyeball (it's obvious he barely knows how to box). Should we rate him with the Frazier and Bowe as his ''numbers'' are similar (better than Bowe in fact)?

 

Charlo is saying he's willing to go to 168 for this fight.

An emphatic win over Charlo is definitely gonna help Canelo's legacy.

 

I doubt it. I don't rate any current fighters enough to give Canelo a sturdy legacy. He's already beaten the best two middleweights. I had Charlo losing to Derev, Korobov & Trout. I don't rate him. Although, like I said, I don't really rate anyone at the minute. Although I do think at this point, he'd obliterate GGG & Andrade. Saunders would be my pick as the best middleweight on the rare occasion he shows up in good form, but I doubt he will ever be disciplined enough to get back down to 160.

I'd probably say the best fights for Canelo - in terms of how I've scored things and who I think are the best middleweights are right now - are Benavidez, Saunders, Derevyanchenko, Charlo, Ryder then Plant. In that order.

But outside of Canelo beating Benavidez, Bivol and Beterbiev, I don't think there's anything he can do to be a legitimate ATG.

 

Beterbiev is 36. Give it 2 years, and Canelo might pick on him.