Just like @Xplosive's South American top five/tens. How'd you see it? Borkhorsor, Sahaprom, Khaosai, Chionoi, Saensak, Chitalada, Pone, etc; should make it. But who else? Khaokar? Pong? Maybe Rungvisai?
I don't have enough of a read on Borkhorsor. I've often looked for his KO win over Betulio, but does it exist on film? I know he's considered a H2H beast, but I need a better read on him. Of the fighters I've seen enough of, I'd probably go with: 1. Khaosai 2. Chitalada 3. Kingpetch 4. Sahaprom 5. Khaokor I'd pick Khaokor over Sahaprom H2H - what he did to Moon was more impressive than any Sahaprom performance I've seen.
I feel like there's a way of getting a decent grasp of Borkhorsor, but it's certainly not ideal. I consider Erbito Salavarria on a similar level to Betulio. A destruction over prime Chionoi, three wins over Susumu, and a draw with Betulio, suggests to me that's they're on the same level. Sure, he was on PEDs but he probably was for Borkhorsor too, I can't see the Thai boxing community in the 70s paying for drug testing. So that's two wins over great, fighters at flyweight, and it's not like he squeaked by them. He broke Gonzalez, and beat him into submission. And he beat seven shades of shit outta Salavarria too, he just went the distance. That's pretty damn impressive IMO. Also, there's a good twelve rounds or so of him vs Herrera at BW, and he's huge there. You get a good idea of his style and physicality from that IMO. He looks unbelievable, and I can absolutely see the beating of Betulio translating into thrashing of other flyweight greats, like Oba or Laciar. But it isn't the same, man. I so wish that those two fights emerge, as I've read from Scartissue, that they were filmed.
I'd probably have it: #01. Venice Borkhorsor #02. Veeraphol Sahaprom #03. Pone Kingpetch #04. Khaosai Galaxy #05. Chartchai Chionoi #06. Sot Chitalada #07. Khaokar Galaxy #08. Pong Wongjongkam #09. Saensak Muangsurin #10. Srisaket Sor Rungvisai
Unironically, probably Lora. Maybe Khaokar. Dunno, tbh. Tough question, since BW is so deep and there's so many guys on that level.
I got Lora by UD over Sahaprom. Maybe the answer is Canizales, though if Canizales is on Seabrooks form, I dunno. It'd be an interesting matchup.
I think I'd probably pick Sahaprom. Canizales wouldn't like his pressure IMO, and I think Deathmask would find home with the cross-counter. Good fight, though. Stylistically, I think Chandler is an easier fight for Sahaprom, albeit a better fighter than both. Can see that one going either way TBH.
Chandler, before coke addiction really ruined his career, is probably a handful for any bantamweight in history not named Jofre, Olivares, Zarate, Harada. A Pintor matchup would have given us the best indication of Chanlder's true worth. My gut tells me that Chandler on his best day outclasses Death Mask.
Outclass is a strong word, but I do think Chandler wins. He is a better fighter, with a much more impressive résumé. I think he's drawn into plenty of exchanges in this one, and he may have to ride out some rough moments like he did vs Gaby but I do pick him to win. I think Sahaprom is the best bantamweight since the 80s, though. Or at least since Tapia. Donaire on that level as well.
Chime in a bit later. Have some projects at work I've been ignoring all morning to make the Gomez thread, and reply to this one . What I'll say before I head out is that I've been gaining a greater appreciation for Sot lately, and I think at his peak he was one of the best flyweights ever.
It involves watching key fights - or reading write ups - from every fighter on McGrain's top fifties. When I told my dad, he called it Project McGrain That said, just watching guys like Bernal, Kim, Castillo, etc; gives you a good idea of how good Chitalada was. I maintain quite heavily that he was a much better flyweight than Chionoi, and would beat him every time. Chionoi, to me, has always been overrated, and I see him as an average chinned, wide open brawler with a huge punch and massive frame for the weight. Great fighter, but a tier below guys like Betulio, Laciar, Oba etc. I think Chitalada falls into that category more.
McGowan beat the living Hell outta Chionoi, and Chionoi was only bailed out by the fact that McGowan bled if you stared at him too hard. Yes, Chit stops Chionoi.
Yep, I remember that one. That two, should I say. McGowan was a very good fighter, though TBF. Quite a spiteful puncher, who's very well schooled. Good defensively with a tidy offence. That skin was about as easy to tear as tracing paper though. I do think Chionoi was very good, just not a top 7/8 flyweight like some have him. Definitely capable of winning a lot of big fights, just more likely to lose them.
I don't have an ardent list, but I've been looking into Pong, and I think he is seriously underrated. I need to look into him more, but I don't think I'd have a problem ranking him over Khoasai (who is overrated for his legacy as is IMO). Also, Samart is the best H2H for my money, followed by mr Venice Bus Station himself.
RD, since I have you here - what's your opinion of the following guys? Hiroshi Kawashima Hideki Todaka Katsuya Onizuka
Kawashima - Very skilled, in my opinion. Was known for having an apparent 'glass chin' (which he readily admitted himself) in Japanese gyms, so worked hard to develop a more defensive style not really known among the Japanese. Not always the most exciting but proved himself as one of the best of his group, after not having much expected of him. A solid and tricky champion. I believe he had a very close one with Penalosa (which I need to watch). Todaka - I can't comment here. Not seen him. Onizuka - Am awesome offensive fighter, whose career was ruined by eye injuries and retinal detachments, which he carried into several of his last bouts. Fought very well in the Arguello mold, due to his long frame. Very nice puncher with technique, though his defense could've been more refined (not that it was bad). Had several awesome wars, including his last bout (a loss) against Chul Lee, which in particular was a barn-burner. He was very, very famous in Japan (and still is), second only to Tatsuyoshi in recognition and fame at that point - they started the 90s Japanese boxing boom that still continues today. Eye injuries were very unfortunate IMO, had the potential to really be a lot more. His sparring with Canizales is one youtube.
Don't expect anything close about the Penalosa vs Kawashima fight, RD. It's the most lopsided "split decision" you'll ever see. Kawashima won maybe 2 rounds. It was a dominant performance by Penalosa. Todaka was a fun action fighter to watch, you should check him out one day when you have time. His fight with Yokthai Sithoar was a war!
Guess it won't be hard to score then . Sounds like a typical Japanese decision. And thanks, I'll add that to my list. Don't know when I'll get round to it as I have so many others I'm supposed to check out.
Need to watch more Kawashima, only seen him vs Penalosa and I think Tokuyuma. Todaka was fun to watch. Couldn't find the second Rojas fight, but the first was okay. The Sithoar fight was brilliant. It feels offensive to use the phrase "Japanese eyes" but that's what Tatsuyoshi and Onizuka had.
That was actually a different Kawashima that fought Tokuyama. Confusing, I know . Tokuyuma never fought the Kawashima that Gerry beat.
