None whatsoever. No exaggeration, either. Kessler was a fine fighter. Very solid at what he did. But Joe and Ward exposed his limitations in very different ways. Even Froch showed you could out hustle him. And Conteh (when not balls deep in slaggies and on the booze) did everything those guys did, but better. MTF
Agreed. Only RJJ is a clear pick over JC at 168 IMO. And I spent a decade hating Calzaghe. Wanted him to lose so many times. But I was a late convert to the truth. The fucker was damn hard to beat At 168. At 175 he has a very good, and under-respected win over Hopkins. And nothing else. He has nothing at 175 to suggest he beats Conteh. Ward has a better argument based on what he did, but what his best effort at 175? Kovalev? Conteh would have lit him up. MTF
I don't honestly thinks anyone beats the crap out of Joe. It isn't fashionable around these parts, I know, but Joe was a fucking good fighter and a tough problem to solve. He was old as hell when he stepped up (another Werren nonsense) but the Kessler fight was the key for me. Mikkel was up at halfway in that fight and looking good, but Calzaghe completely changed tack mid-fight - that's the sign of a real good fighter. I pick John 9 times out of 10 to beat Calzaghe, but he wins a good fight every time imo. Even Roy would have shipped some round to Joe. He wins 9.8 times out of ten, but he never wins 10-2, 11-1. MTF
To that first sentence I say, maybe no SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT beats the crap outta Joe (I think prime Roy would). But at 175???? What in the world do you think a Spinks, Foster, Charles, Moore would do to him? Lol
I'm not sleeping on Joe either. I think he has a good case over any super middle not named Jones. I've said that Ward-Calzaghe is 50-50, but gun to my head, if forced to pick that one, I see Joe beating Ward.
Gut instinct is that Joe is no 175lb fighter. I wouldn't pick him to beat any elite fighter at that weight. But his fight against Hopkins looks better and better with time. Hopkins went on a winning run of half dozen fights or so after Joe beat him, and it is often forgotten that Joe was in his second last fight before he retired to chop up poodle's legs. There are plenty of guys at the weight I'd pick hypothetically to outclass Calz, including all those you listed, but the idea that a wide selection of guys beat him shitless when not one person came close even hurting him in near fifty fights is a stretch imo. MTF
I think Calzaghe did everything Ward did but better. Ward would make it ugly, as Hop did, but I'd also pick Joe to squeak an ugly decision. MTF
Depends on which Toney turns up. The 'proper version' is a 65-35 favourite over Joe imo. But how often did that version turn up? He's much more likely to turn up fast, unmotivated and walk into an avalanche of half turned combos. MTF
Mythical Matchups always assume the best version of each guy. And I doubt Toney would take Calzaghe lightly. He would be up for that matchup.
I dunno. I think MM is a bit more nuanced than that. One swallow doesn't make a summer and all that. Nunn is the classic example. His destruction of Kalambay marks him out as an elite MM proposition, but in truth, that was the exception rather than the rule. Toney wasn't 'off' once or twice. He was on and off like a tap. No way to know which one turns out. He'd have to be at his best to beat Calz at 168. That I do reckon. MTF
I agree with this. If a fighter’s mindset or conditioning or what have you is a flaw, it makes no sense to ignore it. That’s handicapping one fighter, potentially at the expense of the opponent. Long reigning champs that always came in at their best get no credit for that? These things would factor in who we’d pick in an upcoming matchup, so why is a fantasy fight any different?
I need to watch more Conteh. I always go to watch him, get called to do something and think to myself that I'll come back to it, and never do. I have seen a fair bit though, just not as much as I'd have liked. I've seen two fifteen round fights, Saad and Lopez. And even since, I've long thought he was Britain's best LHW. He wins this going away, Kessler and Froch wouldn't beat Yaqui Lopez, let alone Conteh. Conteh is all kinds of wrong for Ward, IMO. No way can Ward wide-leg, stationary stance handle Conteh's movement and I can't see him out-boxing or out-jabbing Conteh, nor taking away his lead hand. He definitely doesn't have the advantage in strength, or skills. Can't see a way of Ward winning tbh, it's that bad a match up. Calzaghe has a much better shot. I'd take him over the versions I've seen, although I've read countless times that he was much better pre-hand injury. Calzaghe's skills are extremely underrated IMO, and he specialises in attacking off the line and landing combinations. He was really versatile and great at both keeping somebody off balance and taking away their best weapons. I don't think he'd actually manage to take away Conteh's jab, or keep him off balance, but I think Conteh's complacency and tendancy to admire his own defence would head toward getting out-worked. As a tall fighter who specialised in straights, I feel like he'd have an issue with Calzaghe's offense. He wouldn't have the power to stop or deter Zaggy IMO. The only thing that troubles me from picking Conteh over guys in the very highest level of the LHW division, is his relatively weak résumé. Some decent wins on there for sure, but it's hard to pick him over a genuinely great fighter when he never even beat a champion.
Alright, thanks mate. Tonight I've watched him vs Lonnie Bennett, Len Hutchins and Johnny Hudgins. Mid way though the Ahumada fight now. I was also gonna watch him vs Lopez, Burnett and the first Finnegan fight. Now I'll add Schmidtke and the Finnegan rematch. Is the Rondon fight out there?
Conteh was really sharp against Tom Boggs. Boggs scored a flash KD of Conteh in the opening moments, but short of that Conteh really him apart. I feel those kind of performances exhibited Conteh at his peak.
Agreed. It's just a bit convenient to say guys like Toney, Benitez and many others were "on" when they won and lost or didn't perform well only because they didn't train hard enough or whatever. When you make a habit out of being consistently inconsistent it has to be taken into account at least somewhat. I can accept the "best version" of a fighter, but i don't translate that into a guy at their absolute apex either. That's a bit too mythical. Take a guy's career best performance and say "that version of the guy". How do we not know whoever the opponent was maybe was having an off night or wasn't at their best either?
