My list is based on a combination of accomplishments at the weight, plus H2H who was the best: 1. Jones: Far and away the H2H GOAT at 168. 2. Calzaghe 3. Ward 4. Toney 5. Froch 6. Kessler 7. Eubank 8. Collins 9. Ottke 10. Benn I would take prime Kessler over Froch H2H, might even take Eubank and Collins over Froch H2H, but Carl just accomplished too much at the weight to put them over him.
#10. Chris Eubank #09. Steve Collins #08. Nigel Benn #07. Sven Ottke. #06. Mikkel Kessler #05. Carl Froch #04. James Toney #03. Roy Jones Jr #02. Andre Ward #01. Joe Calzhage Or somet like that. Jones whips them all, though.
While Roy didn't stay at the weight long enough to accomplish as much as Ward/Calz, he's just soooooo far ahead of them as a fighter that I couldn't not have him at 1. Roy also has the single best win at the weight over Ward/Calz, which helps.
Glad to see that (so far) there's a consensus that Calzaghe, Jones and Ward simply have to be the top three, separated from the rest by daylight. The only question is what order they go in, and that depends on what you value most of all. There's an argument to be made for all of them. I agree that Jones is the most formidable pure fighter the weight class has seen, and he's definitely got the best win at 168 of any Super-Middleweight champion. Toney was in the form of his life as a 168 pounder and was the first guy in the division to command a really high pound for pound rank - and Jones completely humbled him. Is it really fair to put him ahead of two 'career' Super-Middleweights who can boast great longevity and more or less cleaned out the division, though? Maybe not, though I wouldn't argue against it too strenuously. For the time being I'll put Roy down at number three. The 'best' Super-Middleweight for sure, but maybe not the 'greatest' if you'll let me off for that cop out. I'd give Ward the edge over Calzaghe. Not much in it again, though. Obviously Calzaghe is more of a stats monster at 168 given his decade-plus reign as a titlist there, and he has more wins than Ward...But does he have more significant wins than him? Pretty debatable. I think Ward pretty much matched Calzaghe's notable achievements in less than half the time / fights. I appreciate that Calzaghe beat an undefeated Kessler, but I don't think Mikkel was particularly shop-worn when (a pretty young and relatively inexperienced as a pro) Ward beat him, and he did it by a handier margin than Calzaghe (I've never believed that the headbutts / cuts, which in any case came when Ward was dominating anyway, made any difference to the outcome there). So that puts Ward narrowly on top of the pile for me, rounded off by the fact that I'd take him over Calzaghe in a head-to-head, too. Agree completely with Xplosive's take on the Froch-Kessler debate. Kessler the better peak fighter, and while their two fights indiciate that they were well-matched, I'd say his win over Carl is slightly more impressive and significant than vice versa. But outside of that, the gap in terms of achievements and big wins is just too heavily in Froch's favour. So Froch goes ahead of the Dane - could possibly sandwich Toney in between them. Tougher to separate the fine margins after that, but I'll break the mould here and leave Ottke out. To me, it's arguable if he ever won a fight against a top Super-Middleweight, and his fights were absolutely turgid to watch. Single shot and clinch, constant spoiling and fouling, looking to and moaning at the referee whenever he got a taste of his own medicine, the amateurish style...Abysmal stuff. Reid, Glen Johnson, Brewer (first fight anyway, haven't seen the second) - he definitely lost all of those fights in my opinion. I'm not even sure on the Byron Mitchell fight to be honest, which a lot of people give to him. The only semi-big win he has without a whiff of controversy or foul play is against Mundine of all people - who was outboxing him for long periods. 1) Ward 2) Calzaghe 3) Jones 4) Froch 5) Toney (could move up a spot) 6) Kessler 7) Benn 8) Liles 9) Collins 10) Eubank Near misses probably Lindell Holmes (a little underappreciated) and Nunn, who was obviously a diminished force at 168 but still showed some glimpses of his old class there.
Ward is the clear nb 1 imo, cause hia resume at that weight is so deep. Second is rj, and third is froch or calz. I lean toward the former cause at least he had the balls to challenge himself continuously
It's hard to overlook the fact that Froch was handed a loss by Calz's leftovers. And Calz beat a peak Kessler. Froch lost to an already fading Kessler.
I don't spend as much time on Classic anymore, though I still make maybe 1-2 posts a day, therefore I'm not sure who to recruit anymore. Whomever you feel would make a valuable edition, feel free to invite them - we'll take em all.
Both beat the guy clearly when they were fighting at home. And as i said before, theres no proof that Kessler was declining even before the froch rematch. Looked as good as ever in his fight before
Kessler was clearly not what he once was in the Froch rematch. The eye test alone shows that he was slower and less sharp than he was in the mid 00s. It's not Froch had gotten any better, he was still the same guy. Kess had slipped, which is why Froch dominated.
As i said, there was no indication that he declined in the Magee fight, which was just before. Absolutely destroyed him. And even if it was the case, the depth of Froch resume is so much greater than Calz one, that I think it's a rather moot point. And Calz was lucky to get the win over Reid, which is a fight that could have gone either way
Really not sure about Eubanks over Benn. Benn had the much better win, should probably have gotten the nod in the re at 168 and Eubanks resume is littered with struggles and robberies against trash fighters
I never said my list was concrete. The only certainties on the list are that Roy was the best among them, and Ward/Toney/Calz were a cut above the rest. Every other position is up for debate, depending if you value accomplishments or H2H.
Calz was not a cut above Froch. The revisionism is strong on this one. Was reading the thread after Froch destruction of Bute and nearly everyone was agreeing Froch was the greater fighter
The best thing I can say for Froch is that he does match up better against Joe than he would against Jones or Toney. But Calzaghe I think is worse for him than Ward was.
