Tier I Ruben Olivares, Eder Jofre Tier II Chucho Castillo, Fighting Harada, Carlos Zarate, Manuel Ortiz, Rafael Herrera, Lionel Rose, Lupe Pintor and Jose Medel Tier III Orlando Canziales, Miguel Lora, Jeff Chandler, Raul Perez and Khaokar Galaxy Tier IV Alberto Davila, Alan Rudkin, Jose Becerra, Alphonse Halimi, Jorge Lujan, Veeraphol Sahaprom, Hozumi Hasegawa, Bernardo Pinango, Gilberto Roman, Sung-Kil Moon, Khaosai Galaxy, Alfonso Zamora, Jiro Watanabe, Naoya Inoue, Nonito Donaire, Johnny Tapia and Gerry Penalosa Tier V Gaby Canizales, Wilfredo Vazquez, Nana Konadu and.... Tier WTF Anyone without footage
If you wanna change my mind on anything, I'm going to need an explanation - but my mind is open. I think this should be fun.
I consider Zarate tier 1 because I'd pick him over Olivares. Jofre stops both imo, but has a tougher time with Olivares based on styles.
I disagree that Zarate stops Olivares, and I've not seen a convincing argument for it (obviously IMO), and I just can't cop him being a full tier higher than Pintor.
I think the pro-Zarate argument is quite simple and logical: Olivares never had a great chin nor a great defense, and Zarate threw straighter, more compact and accurate punches between the two. Zarate was also never stopped or dominated at bantam the way Olivares was. Most people (including me) felt he beat Pintor, and even if you feel Pintor won, the fact is Zarate was no longer Zarate after Gomez destroyed him. And if you wanna dispute that, then you can't have it both ways, cause the pro-Olivares argument is always that Olivares was no longer Olivares when Herrera destroyed him. Destroyed him. Not beat him by controversial decision like Pintor did Zarate... Herrera mopped the floor with Olivares. There's absolutely nothing which suggests Olivares is a lock, or even a favorite over Zarate at 118. I'll always maintain that I think Zarate would have stopped Olivares late.
Just MO, but I think Perez is a bit high and Becerra too low. I would put Becerra in that third tier, and I see no reason why Becerra couldn't potentially beat Chandler or Canizales. You can't put Becerra and Halimi in the same tier when Becerra absolutely obliterated him twice.
Since this is H2H (as opposed to ranking accomplishments/greatness) I would put Zarate and Panama Al Brown in Tier 1. I think Zarate is no less than 50-50 vs. any bantam in history, even if he lacks the depth of resume of some of the other great bantams.
The simple and logical argument is the one that hasn't convinced me every time I've heard it. Olivares may not have ever had a great chin, nor great defence - but neither did Zarate, and you'd have to be pretty daft to think that Olivares would be an easy target for Zarate. He'd be moving laterally, and he had much better feet than Zarate. Look at how an old, feather Olivares kept turning Arguello, walking him onto shots and then getting out of the way. I have no doubt that a prime Olivares could something exactly like that to Zarate, and not only that, but I think it's pretty obvious that Olivares is a lot closer in talent to Gomez than he is Zarate. The difference between the Zarate who lost to Pintor and beat Davila is non-existent. If you choose to say that Zarate's mind wasn't in it or whatever for Pintor, that's fine. I choose to say Pintor won, because Pintor was better. Even still, the difference there is a lot less tangible than the difference between the Olivares who destroyed Rose, and the Olivares who lost to Herrera. Even the version of Olivares who didn't have to make weight did much, much better vs Herrera. I've never said that Olivares was a lock over Zarate, nobody is a lock over Zarate - that's why he's so high up. But there is plenty to suggest that Olivares is to be favoured over him, especially given that Olivares quite clearly has the best résumé in filmed bantamweight history. Zarate may not have been stopped at 118, but he was absolutely annihilated by Gomez who's basically the same size as him. It's likely that I'll always maintain that Zarate is overrated both head-to-head, and in terms of achievements. He remains in tier two.
I wouldn't give Becerra more than a puncher's chance vs Chandler. And that's only be because Chandler would go to war with him. If Canizales boxed and countered, I think he'd beat Becerra quite clearly (albeit, after having needed to survive a few rocky moments). I didn't think Becerra destroyed Halimi in there rematch. If anything, I was far more impressed with Halimi before the last two rounds. It was an epic come from behind KO, but I don't think either set themselves apart in that fight. Becerra didn't by getting dropped and losing most rounds, and Halimi didn't by getting KTFO'd. Where would you rank Perez?
I didn't look through every name, but yeah, I would put R.Marquez in that tier 3. I don't see who else George left off. I hope you don't think that Tim Austin belongs .
IMO, this tier should be eliminated and everyone on it moved either up or down a tier. From a purely H2H perspective, I think Chandler, Canizales, and Lora belong in the discussion with Medel, Pintor, and Herrera.
If pushed to, I'd move Canizales, Khaokar and Lora up, and the other two down. Feels weird to have Khaokar a full tier above Galaxy though. I'm struggling with what to do with Jeff Fenech. I don't rate Marquez particularly highly. I think maybe him, Moreno and Mares could creep into the lower tiers. But there's way more than that on there for the last 20-25 years. Hozumi, Sahaprom, Tapia, Konadu, Penalosa, Donaire, Inoue, etc; I put loads of modern guys on there.
Just after refreshing myself on Brown's record, rereading Flea's article on him and watching the fights posted by @Ring Leader, I've decided he's definitely an 'in' for Tier Two. It was doubtful he'd ever impress me as much as Olivares or Jofre have. I am quite happy that I was right about his style. He does seem to be of that Panamanian slickster mold - almost like a klecksographic Laguna - and with his height, reach, power and speed, he does seem to be a handful for anybody.
Tier I Ruben Olivares, Eder Jofre Tier II Chucho Castillo, Fighting Harada, Carlos Zarate, Manuel Ortiz, Rafael Herrera, Lionel Rose, Lupe Pintor, Panama Al Brown and Jose Medel Tier III Orlando Canziales, Miguel Lora, Jeff Chandler, Raul Perez, Guillermo Rigondeaux and Khaokar Galaxy Tier IV Alberto Davila, Alan Rudkin, Jose Becerra, Alphonse Halimi, Jorge Lujan, Veeraphol Sahaprom, Hozumi Hasegawa, Bernardo Pinango, Gilberto Roman, Sung-Kil Moon, Khaosai Galaxy, Alfonso Zamora, Jiro Watanabe, Naoya Inoue, Nonito Donaire, Johnny Tapia, Jeff Fenech, and Gerry Penalosa Tier V Gaby Canizales, Anselmo Moreno, Wilfredo Vazquez, Nana Konadu and.... Tier WTF Anyone without footage
