Fighters who were "as good as a fighter can be without being great."

The above quote was once used by a sportswriter to describe WW contender Billy Graham. I'm not sure I agree that it's actually an accurate description of him, but what are some fighters you believe are befitting of that description?

IMO, Holly Mims is one of the best examples of that description - he gave a lot of elite fighters/HoFers hell throughout his long career, but usually ended up just coming up short.

I think Glen Johnson is something of a modern equivalent of Mims. He came up big in back-to-back fights against RJ and Tarver, but otherwise usually faded late and ended up falling short in big fights (albeit sometimes controversially) throughout the rest of his career.

I think Marlon Starling falls under this umbrella as well - I think he'd give a lot of great WWs throughout history problems, but would probably end up outworked in the end.

 

Alan Rudkin is one of these guys IMO.

 

Johnson's a good shout. I've often wondered if he'd got to Roy first and the fight went the exact same way it did, would he then be considered great? It would certainly have been a shock to surpass even Tyson-Douglas imo, but then whether that would put him over the edge into greatness is another story I suppose.

 

I think of Cotto as a really good fighter who fell short of being a great.

 

I think Cotto proved his greatness after whooping Martinez. But hes a lower level great for sure

 

Vargas probably fits the bill

 

Pleaze.

 

Eddie MM is a great example here. Missed out on greatness purely on laziness, certainly not from a lack of ability.

 

I agree, I think the wins over Mosley and Martinez elevate him beyond just a "good" fighter. He just wasn't on the same tier as ATGs like Pac and Mayweather.

 

I think Johnson's biggest problem was that he didn't find a stylistic identity until relatively late in his career, when he was already in his '30s. He spent the first half of his career trying to be a boxer and sharpshooter before adopting the swarming pressure style for which he's known. I wonder if his career could've been different if he teamed up with Orlando Cuellar earlier and was still young enough to fully capitalize on the style change.

 

Mosley was past it, and Martinez had one leg.

Moroever, I scored Cotto-Mosley a draw. I always felt Shane deserved a rematch, as he controlled the fight late.

 

I did feel Cotto won (barely) but it's no stretch to have it a draw or even Mosley winning. The Martinez win means next to nothing to me.

Cotto shouldn't be known as a great fighter anymore than Margarito should, who shouldn't.

 

Cotto to me is the exact same tier as Simon Brown, and Brown is considered a very good, but not great fighter.

Same as Miggy.

 

Lol cotto was my first thought before opening the thread.

Barrera feels like he might be similarly close to the threshold, tho he might pass through to the right side of it?

Darius Michaelszescki?

 

Regardless of his age, he'd only been beaten by two other fighters in his career to that point (one of whom was a jr. MW), he was coming off a recent string of impressive wins, and he went on to flatten Mayorga and Margarito afterward. Even if he wasn't at his absolute peak, he was still very much an elite fighter at that time.

 

Nah, I would say Barrera was a great fighter.

Yeah, DM fits. He was a very good, but not great fighter.

I would group Barry McGugian in there. Very good, but not great.

 

I feel like Cotto fans try to reconcile his "greatness" by writing off the first Margarito loss, despite the fact that there's zero proof that Marg snuck loaded wraps past the toughest boxing commission in the world.

George is right. If Cotto is a great, so is Margarito.

 

That's like saying Hasim Rahman, Mike Rossman, and Billy Backus (among numerous others) all have to be considered great simply because they won the 1st of a 2-fight series with a great fighter.

 

Not at all. Those were clearly flukes, this clearly wasn't. Margarito also has a decent little résumé outside of the fights with Cotto.

 

That's a horrible comparison.

Margarito has good wins outside of Cotto.

For instance, Marg beat Clottey, a lot more clearly than Cotto did. I had Cotto losing to Clottey.

Marg has a stoppage win over Martinez, too. He beat up a green Martinez, Cotto beat up a shot Martinez. They're even.

What about Cotto clearly separates him from Marg? The only argument is that he fared much better against Mosley.

But going back, that's my point. "Great" fighters don't get schooled by Austin Trout, and arguably lose to Josh Clottey in their primes.

 

Oh and, Margarito went close with Paul Williams.

We can only speculate, but I feel Paul Williams would have beaten Cotto up.

 

Margs also acquitted himself better vs Pacquiao IMO.

 

Yeah, the damage Pac took in the Margarito win kinda ended the reign of the "killer" Pac.

Outside of Cotto matching up better with Shane, I don't see the separation.

Cotto and Marg were the same level imo.

I was so tempted to use the Sadam Ali fight against Cotto, but decided to give him a pass there. He was shot to Hell in the Ali fight.

 

Buddy McGirt
Starling
Julian Jackson
Danny Lopez
Bobby Chacon
Ray Mancini
Rosario
Froch
Pavlik
Cuevas
T. Austin
Palomino
G. Hernandez
Danny Romero
Esparragoza
Tarver

 

What damage?

 

I had exactly him in mind when I read the thread!

 

Cotto has titles in a lot more weight classses, and not paper titles. That counts when you rate greatness

 

Brian Mitchell fits here. At 130, he's closer to very good level than he is truly great fighters like Arguello, Floyd, Chavez, Pac, and Nelson.

 

Cotto was capable of winning titles and competing at an elite level across multiple weight classes, and he also continued to win meaningful fights when past his prime

Marg is more comparable to a Hatton, a fighter who was only effective at a single weight class for as long as he could suck his weight down, and wasn't versatile enough to muster a Second Act to his career.

As far as comparing common opponents, the stark differences in their performances against Mosley speaks a lot more volumes than fights like Pacquiao and Clottey that ended up with the same outcome.

 

Of all the guys you listed here, I think Rosario was the best. One could argue that Rosario was a great rather than a very good.

The rest were very goods, though you have three all time PUNCHERS among these guys in Jackson, Cuevas, and Little Red.