Fighters who were "as good as a fighter can be without being great."

I disagree, I thought Cotto managed to make the first few rounds competitive and interesting before the 2nd KD finally broke him. That may not seem like much, but it was much more than what other Pac opponents not named Marquez were doing against him at that stage of his career.

I also thought Cotto gave Mayweather one of the more lively and competitive fights of his career.

 

Let's not forget, theres also tiers of greats.

You have guys DLH, Mosley, Tito, and Barrera, who can be called "greats."

Then you have your true ALL TIME GREATS like Duran, Monzon, Leonard, Roy, Gavilan, Whitaker, Hagler, ect.

 

Good list. I would only suggest that Lopez may have just crossed the threshold into being a great fighter.

 

Floyd avoided Marg, so we'll never know how that one would have gone down.

 

Yeah Lopez, Rosario, and Jackson I think were the three best of this bunch Doub listed.

Danny Romero is the weakest link of Doub's list.

I dunno if Romero was a "very good."

Closer to a "good" with big power.

 

Matter of fact, I think they make the threshold. I would categorize Lil Red, Chapo, and Jackson as "great" fighters. They just don't make that all time great tier I was discussing. But I find them a cut above very good.

 

Would Corrales or Castillo qualify?

 

Yes. Both fit into the very good category.

 

What would Michael Nunn be?

I think he's borderline. Personally, I feel that at his best he was a cut above very good.

 

Rosario's failure to convincingly beat Ramirez has always been his biggest impediment to being labelled a true great IMO.

I think the manner in which Jackson lost to McCallum and McClellan while still in the vicinity of his prime keeps him from crossing the threshold. He's too much of a "I take you out or you take me out" kind of fighter IMO - there isn't enough of a middle ground to how his fights may go down.

 

Yeah, but Little Red was also kill or be killed.

He did last longer in his KO losses than Jackson did, but Chacon and Sanchez dominated him.

Jackson losing to Gerald shouldn't hurt his legacy.

Gerald was a super middleweight. Julian was a junior middleweight. And Jackson was doing quite well in the first fight until waking into a bomb.

In the rematch, he was shot and half blind.

 

I watched that live. I was expecting Cotto to blow him out but he never came close.

 

Cotto was expected to lay a beat down on Shane, I remember.

Let's be honest, the 09-00 Mosley would have beaten the shit outta Cotto.

 

The only title Cotto ever won and was rated the number one upon winning was vs Martinez.

 

Lopez's losses at least show that he was sturdy enough to withstand punishment and could be relied upon to not be taken out by a single punch or two. He never lost a fight simply by "waking into a bomb" the way Jackson did. His wins over Kotey and Ayala also show that he could battle tooth-and-nail with opponents all the way into the 15th round and still win.

 

Vitali was good but not great.

Take away the injuries and from about 1992 onwards {in other words basically every other guy than Prime Mike} and he is a live dog.

He beat the shit out of anyone Pre-Ali too.

 

Liston and Louis would bash Vitali around the ring.

 

I'm not sure about that.

Louis had a manufactured punchbag in front of him in the shape of Primo Carnera. He needed rounds of total domination to put him away.

Buddy Baer had him in all sorts of trouble.

Neither of those had anything like Vitali.

As for Liston......again, he's fought nobody like Vitali........this isn't Floyd Patterson or Cat Williams here.

I can accept arguments either way, but neither of them is going to just get in there and do any bashing off the opening bell.

We never saw Louis take a shot from a genuine 250lb big man.,

 

I fail to see how stopping Carnera in six and not losing a second of it is something that isn't impressive. Carnera stood up to Baer for eleven rounds with a broken ankle, his chin and heart were fine so Louis stopping him in the first half is impressive. Both the Baer's clearly hit harder than Vitali with one punch IMO, and Louis didn't look hurt in the slightest when he got up. He then beat the everliving fuck out of him. He also smashed up Abe Simon too. None of these were great, but they were closer to Vitali in style and ability than anyone Vitali beat was to lose.

Who did Vitali fight like Liston? Who had those fundamentals, that power and that jab? Machen, Williams and Patterson would be Vitali's best wins. This isn't a shot Lewis or Chris Byrd.

We definitely saw Louis take punches from harder hitters than Vitali. If anything, we didn't see Vitali take punches from someone like Louis.

 

Even if you disagree, it's ridiculous to say that Vitali would beat the shit out of them.

 

Yeah it is. ..........I should have made an exception there.

All that Braddock, Sharkey, Dempsey, Galento that whole scene, and I include the Jack Johnsons and the Sam Langfords in that.

For me, once Vitali gets in the ring with Louis, Liston and doesn't fall over inside of the first 8 rounds, you've got to start fancying his chances and you've got start putting him that in that "Good" category.

 

Frazier, Liston, and Louis would all beat Vitali.

 

I'd love to see the fights. Im honestly not sure. They'd basically each be moving up 1-2 weight classes.

 

My belief is that V's performance in all those fights is good enough to put him in the "Good not Great" category, for keeps.