I think Ali was a bit greater, and Leonard was a bit better. Ali is overrated IMO, but he's still the best heavy ever.
Yeah, greatness probably does go to Ali. He pulled two of the biggest upsets ever against two feared monsters, one was pretty close to the prime, and the second who was at his peak. And he did so in emphatic fashion, over both. Leonard also pulled one of boxing's biggest upsets, but over a faded Hagler in a fight that coulda gone either way.
Well, I'd actually give Leonard the edge in high-end wins. Duran, Hearns, Hagler and Benitez are slightly better as a collection than Frazier and Liston twice and Foreman. It's the depth of his résumé that takes it for Ali IMO, because outside of those four wins for Leonard, it falls off. Ali's top ten wins is incredible. Not to mention years and years of longevity and also being able to take time out.
For his impact outside of boxing, Ali is obviously greater. If we are talking strictly boxing, it's Leonard by a clear margin imo
Outside the ring impact has no bearing on what we're discussing. Ali was the more important historical figure by leaps and bounds, especially in the black community, but we're only talking about ring greatness.
Let’s not forget how Ali ducked that one Asian kid. What was his name again? Oh yeah Vietnam. I kid, I kid. It’s funny though that once the US government started assassinating any and every black activist out there that they had to pump the brakes once Ali took up the mantle. I’m sure they realized the fallout would be disastrous if they stuck with the usual play of use the hidden assassin and play stupid approach. So they decided to go with a foreign assassin this time, except Ali refused to step in the crosshairs. At a time when going to war was still looked at as an honorable thing and the death and destruction that usually falls on innocent civilians heads was mostly an afterthought, Ali was ahead of his time. He wasn’t the first he wasn’t the only one but I believe he was the biggest personality to refuse to fight and he took a lot of heat for it. It showed his morals it showed his humanity and it showed he ducked nobody including the US government. That’s a big reason why he’s the greatest.
Yeah the FBI under J Edgar Hoover. The brother of the man who set Malcom X up claimed on his deathbed that while he was in the FBI he was forced to do it. He said he felt guilty about it most of his life.
I was thinking about it, this would probably be my new top ten. #01. Harry Greb #02. Henry Armstrong #03. Sugar Ray Robinson #04. Ezzard Charles #05. Sam Langford #06. Benny Leonard #07. Muhammad Ali #08. Roberto Duran #09. Bob Fitzsimmons #10. Archie Moore
I have the same fighters in my top 5 (but in a different order) and Ali, Duran, and Benny at 7-9. I have Mickey Walker at #6 and Pacquiao at 10. Wilde, Pep, Saddler, Ray Leonard, and Joe Louis (not necessarily in that order) would probably make up my 11-15 tier.
Wow. The Deep State. N Shiet. They were never going to kill him in Vietnam. They didn't even kill Jack Johnson. In fact some dude pardoned him!! Ali got conscientious objector status. He then blew it by beating up Terrell. Thats a fact.
The five I have after Moore are the following in this order. #11. Joe Louis #12. Tony Canzoneri #13. Willie Pep #14. Barney Ross #15. Jimmy Wilde
Id be happy to discuss it in the Pol forum. You'd be surprised how much i agreee with you regards Police/related bodies.
Nah, I have him at #23. Just between Tunney and Saddler. Although, I have always felt Mickey was a little overrated. Unambiguously great, but a smidge below that ultimate all-timer bracket IMO.
Do you think Saddler could have moved up to 147 and stayed with Ray over 15 rounds? I think Hearns had long-range issues at 147, he must have had less down the stretch. He didn't fight long fights, he didn't acclimatize to long fights, he was getting early KO's and relying on that. Saddler wouldn't have those issues.
how can Ali be considered better when he couldn't throw body punches and got hit by every hook thrown at him? he's way greater though
I don't think he could go to 140 and go the distance with Pacquiao, so I definitely don't think he'll go the distance with prime Leonard. Hearns could go 15 if he was prepared to. The problem in the Leonard fight was that Ray was a beast in the late rounds and proved it multiple times in his career.
