Canelo-Saunders: Predictions, Discussions, RBR

Saunders did okay in rounds 4-6 where he took the initiative a bit more and had Canelo loading up once or twice but, rightly or wrongly, this fight will give his critics plenty of ammunition and be seen as symptomatic of why he's not as great as he or his hard-line fans claim.

Overall the fight never really got going. Saunders was a bit too passive and reactive in the first three rounds, and Canelo was just Canelo - workmanlike, kept at it with the consistent pressure and ultimately was just a bit too robust and heavy-handed for Saunders. I had Canelo narrowly ahead at the time of the stoppage - I thought the two 78-74 cards were too wide - but in any case that eighth round had finished Saunders off and even if he'd have continued by some chance, it would have simply delayed the inevitable.

Bad injury by the looks of things and I think the 'quitter' label will haunt Saunders unfortunately. It's unfair on him, but a lot of people who he's rubbed up the wrong way over the years have been waiting desperately for his first loss, and they'll enjoy it now. Particularly after the criticisms he made of Dubious 'conceding defeat' when he had a similar injury, and all his stuff about that fighting instinct and talent being the result of thousands of years of breeding, travellers being true fighting men who never give in etc.

 

I ended up not watching it, but it seems this fight has really split people on Canelo's standing. Some calling him an all-time great and some still not buying into him. My view on Canelo is still almost the same as it was before. The Saunders win - keep on mind, this is without having seen the fight - doesn't mean much to change it. Mostly due to Saunders being a combination of massively unproven and not particularly impressive. It's not as impressive a win as say, Crawford-Postol. That said, it is another title, another champ, and another decent win on his leger.

Long way to go before he's in any sort of genuine all-time great conversation IMO, but he's carving out a nice foundation and base of good wins to underline his best wins. And nowadays he doesn't seem to need the corruption, he used to. Still on roids (apparently there was no VADA for this one) but let's be honest, he isn't the first and he definitely won't be the last.

 

I agree with you @George Crowcroft - I'm confused why this fight would really change anyone's views on Canelo all that much, for better or worse. We didn't learn anything new or see anything we haven't seen with him plenty of times before, and I see him exactly the same afterwards as I did beforehand. A good fighter, but probably the poorest and most obviously beatable so-called 'pound for pound king' in a long time.

If anyone is surprised that he lost a few rounds here, or didn't have it all his own way, then I can only guess they haven't seen much of him until now.

 

Yep, is a bull in there. Still dont think hes an stg, but hes making everything to make me change my mind

 

I still don't really see why so much attention is given to losing a few rounds ( not meaning you).

Most of the ATGs have lost rounds, even several of them, here and there, yet they have had the bout under control all the time. Spinks, Ali, Hopkins, Arguello, they all lost rounds and it meant nothing.

Against Saunders Canelo was controlling 'the war' all the way and the result seemed inevitable.

Also, Canelo has had 50+ fights and imo he has gotten a clearly undeserved decision once (GGG I). There have been some close and questionable ones, but it is not like all his credentials were undeserved.

@REEDsART pretty much said what I think in his latest BBS. At some point, you have to start giving credit to the guy who makes his opponents quit or look bad, instead of blaming all the opponents.

 

Yeah, agreed. Saunders isn't much more than a decent scalp - no need to go overboard. Canelo did what he had to do though, and stayed calm in the face of the attempts Saunders made fo annoy him. I suppose he was hoping for his Fury-Wlad moment. As I say, I haven't seen it. I can't comment on whether he saw something new or not, but it does seem like his inability at catching slick out-boxers has started to wane.

Again, agreed. Canelo is far from a hypejob or a bum, but he's the worst genuine pound-for-pound number one in decades - possibly all the way back to the advent of the Walker Law, although that's a completely different topic for a different thread - but he does have his redeeming qualities. His issues come from his stamina and footwork, but his upper body work is excellent. Very fluid combos, great form, excellent defensive work (when he focuses on being a defensive unit, anyway) and good countering skills.

What impresses me, though, is his feints and setups. He is very impressive with how he uses level-changes and directional feints to set up his overhand and left hook. He's gotten away from them more nowadays, but at 154, his pull-counters are good too, I like how he uses the uppercut with them instead of a cross. That said, his uppercut and bodywork are still both excellent. It really is only his feet and stamina that holds him back, because if he had the stamina and foot-speed of Chavez or Duran, he'd he be right up there with some of the best MWs ever.

And as for all of those close, controversial decisions he has, is he actually any different to say, Lionel Rose? No, not in my opinion. I think in time we'll look back and see someone who got the benefit of the doubt, not a cheating bastard. That said, the sparring story, the hand wrap stacking, the PEDs and the fact that he's endlessly being shoved down our throats makes it hard for me like him.

 

Actually agree with you on the hysteria over fighters losing a few rounds in a fight or struggling before forcing a stoppage. It's a sport and guess what, if you're fighting good opposition then sometimes you're going to have some issues.

I guess we've been spoilt by seeing the likes of Jones, Mayweather and Pacquiao on the pound for pound throne in the last twenty-odd years and maybe Canelo suffers unfairly in comparison to those guys. They comprehensively dominated and outclassed a string of world class opponents, turned expected 50:50 fights into one-sided masterclasses and did things in the ring which got you genuinely excited or marvelling at them in a way Canelo never has, and may never do.

With regards to some of the close verdicts on his record...

Without splitting hairs, let's just say we agreed that Golovkin I was the only absolute judging shocker (as opposed to a merely debatable one) he's benefited from. You could say that in isolation, none of Trout, Lara or Golovkin II were outright robberies and that they were simply close fights in which a case can be made for either guy, and therefore Canelo winning them is nothing to get in a twist over. But I think the problem is that in all three cases, in which you could pick a winner by the flip of a coin, Canelo has conveniently come out lucky every single time, with some ridiculous cards in his favour thrown in for good measure. Any other fighter, you'd expect the law of averages to kick in and think that for every close one they've won, there's another tight verdict they've dropped. Not so for Canelo which leaves a bitter taste in people's mouths.

Even in some fights he's won inside-schedule, some of the scoring beforehand has left you thinking that a victory for him was a fait accompli in any case, with or without the stoppage (arguably tonight, but certainly in the Kovalev fight). In that sense, I still don't think he's fully shed that image of being a fighter who is protected to a certain extent. The PED issue is another gripe which you can't blame people for taking umbrage too, albeit you don't hear too much grumbling about it now.

But hey, I'll admit I'm not his greatest fan and I may well be being unfairly harsh on him. Impartiality is hard, possibly even impossible. Will happily admit he's developed into a better fighter with a much more impressive record than I ever thought he was capable of back in 2011 / 2012 when the PR drive to make him a star really started kicking in. Just not quite sure I see a truly great fighter yet.

 

I wouldn't call Canelo the worst guy ever considered P4P.

Oscar was considered the P4P at points in the 90s. Now, that was never truly the case, as Jones was the best fighter in the world, but The Ring recognized Oscar as the P4P several years.

I think Canelo has developed into a better fighter than DLH. He's certainly more cerebral.

 

I don't think Saunders did all that well in all honesty. Did he have his "moments"? Meh. He may have moved well, landed some shots of note and made Alvarez miss a handful of punches he threw, but Canelo never looked troubled, or flustered at all. Canelo found the body early and that was enough then to know that Saunders was going to be in trouble. I hope to God that we never see or hear the name Billy Joe Saunders again.

 

Get da fuck outta here, mayne!

 

I wonder if Canelo's great grandfather is listed on this plaque.

 

Hate is a big word. I hate what he stands for, his entire zero class assholery outlook on things. Big Mr "Blithe Spirit", his entire Devil take the hindmost attitude. The planets here to provide Mr Saunders with a platform, everyone else is here to provide a supporting cast.

Smug, grinning, louche.

The BBCs sycophantic reporting makes it all the worse.

Saunders should be getting written up as a disgusting showpony who failed badly on the biggest weekend of his life.

Instead he's having excuses made for him to the point of incredulity. He doesn't deserve that type of cover. I can scarcely believe half of what I'm reading.

 

He's not a banger. He's a concise persistent boxer whose power is augmented by his accurate well conceived shots. He makes his shots more powerful, as demonstrated by letting Saunders bend over into an uppercut after Saunders had started to slip under the hooks.

 

Los San Patricios.

I'd like to claim him.

 

It will be up to you to track down his lineage. I've spoken to Punk and he has agreed to provide you 100,000 dollars to cover research and travel expenses for a fightbeat investigative exclusive.

 

Regarding Andrade, if Andrade was out here destroying guys, then I would advocate for him to fight Canelo - but he's not.

All his performances in recent years have been underwhelming.

You think boxing to a boring, underwhelming decision over Liam Williams justifies a Canelo fight?

Now, Andrade is better than BJS - but given his lack of durability, it seems unlikely he can beat Canelo at this stage.

I think Andrade had an excellent chance of beating Canelo in 2014. His odds now are not good.

 

Canelo should have said he couldn't even find who Andrade was on google.

 

I have no doubt Saunders was always better than Andrade. Charlo, Plant and Benavidez are the fights I want Canelo in.

 

Oh BTW, Plant will give Canelo a tougher fight than Smith and BJS did. I guarantee it. Plant is better than Stiff Smith and the pussy tinker, and I've been saying that.

Once again, not predicting a Plant victory, but I promise you its gonna be the hardest fight of the trio.

 

Major public relations effort in the United Kingdom to make out this Saunders chap was doing so brilliantly until he got hit in the face by this punch from hell.

 

Hardly.

Andrade would have outboxed BJS. Similar styles, but Andrade is just more physically talented, and also has more pop.

BJS seemed intimated by Andrade in their press conferences.

 

Saunders has talents and skills and some of them really are derived from his tradition as a carnival barking pickpocket gypsy sort.

The hands down by the side, loose as a goose, confident, etc.

The way he keeps distance and looks like the sort of guy who could confuse and befuddle bigger stronger men etc.

One thing I am sure of now is that at this level of competition, against somebody as well drilled and as resolute as Alvarez, that sort of "hit me if you can" mentality isn't worth shit.

And once he did get hit, this man of the thousand-year-heart .......quit.

In a barekuckle fight, there is an endless space to move into. There are historical records of fights having taken place over miles of countryside as the men moved around, backing up, charging forwards etc. You can make a guy moving backwards.

These guys very often conflate "Bare Knuckle Boxing" with "Old London Prize Ring Rules"- but the old Prize Ring.....was a ring. It was a confined space.

For Saunders........against guys like Eubank Jr, he was always getting time off against a static opponent to catch his breath and pick his nice flashy shots. That's Saunders mentality through and through, his whole MO is to pick shots, get off, run, make faces.

Can't do that in a ring.

To be honest I am not sure Saunders would do a better job on LIam Williams than Andrade did.

 

Andrade is in decline, in my honest opinion.

He doesn't look as sharp as he used to. He wasted his prime.

 

I don't think BJS beats Paul Williams any better than Andrade, and he probably doesn't drop him.

Now he's had his 1000 Year Heart taken, and can't get up for the fights like he used to, Williams would probably beat him.

Saunders is an animal of emotion. It's why he says things that he does. He thrives off notional things.

Canelo is a calculator.

I said that he'd have a fight camp which would involve him wringing out every last wrinkle and so it was.

I think Saunders is through now. He quit. He knows he quit. I don't care that he quit, but he's an emotional wreck, he thrives off the misplaced notion that he is descended from the most unstoppable breed of men of all time, too good, too gyppo, too hard.

And he's just not.

 

Herol Graham.

It's pathetic.

I can't keep going on about this, I just can't.

So one last time...........

"Boxer punched in face. Fight stopped wisely".

"Midget Jap punched repeatedly in head and is only kept up by opponents fists, fight MUST GO ON"

 

In the meantime........another retard......laughing about a guy WHO BEAT HIM getting beat himself.

Truly an era of intolerable mental midgets and retards.

 

1. I'm confident that BJS is done at world level. Guys don't tend to come back from these orbital injuries, and his confidence will never be the same.

2. The Eubank Jr. thing is so amusing. If BJS is shit, what does that make you, Junior?

 

I wonder if Saunders won the fight and got ripped off if he would have called that cultural appropriation.

 

yes, on both counts.

And Eubank Jr is sat there in a room surrounded by enabling bums all clapping and reinforcing his ego.

It's like you want to take the guy to one side and explain to him that this guy Saunders already beat him.......and that Canelo will too.

PS the bet thing is all fake. Eubank used a bet slip you can get anywhere. If it was real he'd have shown us his electronic account.