Who beats a prime JCC?

Been getting back into watching Chavez’s fights.
The Chavez who tortured and beat out a prime and talented Edwin Rosario,…beats any lightweight who ever lived, other than Duran.

 

Joey Napoles

 

At 135, definitely Duran, Whitaker, Armstrong & Ortiz.

They can't really be argued IMO. I think they're pretty clear favourites over Chavez. The field is pretty open from there, though. I'd also back Floyd and Ike Williams over Chavez too, but I'd give Chavez a better chance of winning them than the other four. Napoles at 135 is hard to gauge. If he was anywhere close to as good at 140, which I think is likely, he'd beat the breaks off Chavez. In fact, I think that might be the very worst match up of the lot for JCC. From there it's what you like, I guess. I think Laguna would beat Chavez, personally. I know X favours Mosley, I've seen people pick Willie Joyce over him which is a reasonable wildcard. Not loads of guys, but certainly a few.

At 140, I'd take Pryor, Pacquiao, Ross, Cervantes, and the aforementioned to beat him.

At 130, I'd take Arguello and Mayweather, possibly Canzoneri, Pacquiao and Elorde.

In short, not many guys. Especially given that 130-140lbs is probably the most talent rich of any 10lbs gap in the sport. I dunno if that makes sense, but I know what I mean

 

Ike Williams? Floyd?

 

At 140 I'd like to see Zivic give it a go. He's tough enough to make it interesting.

 

I back Ortiz over Chavez, but I wouldn't say that a Chavez victory can't be argued. If Ortiz and Chavez fought 10 times, JCC is gonna win a few of em.

Duran and Whitaker are the only CLEAR favorites over Chavez at 135. Other guys can be favored also, but one could make a pro-Chavez argument. Duran is the clearest favorite, because he had all of Chavez's best attributes, plus much more.

At 130, I would pick Floyd and Arguello over Chavez, but one could make a pro-Chavez argument over either.

 

Oscar might get in there and cut him up!!

 

I don't think it's crazy to pick Oscar over any Chavez at 140, but it's not the pick I would go with.

I think the 89-90 Chavez would exploit Oscar's stamina issues.

 

If Oscar was weak at 147 and tired out by a relative plodder like Tito then it's possible Chavez could get to him.

Fwiw I don't think Floyd would be the pick either. I saw too much in the Castillo fights. Floyd would need "help".

 

Yeah, it's possible Chavez is too much for Floyd below 140.

 

Yeah I'm not convinced of Floyd being favoured over Chavez either partly for the same reason. It's not a mental pick by any means, but Chavez had a lot of the right tools to get the job done, especially with a ref willing to let the infighting unfold rather than jumping in every time Mayweather looks uncomfortable. Against the best fighters he faced other than Corrales I think he was more focused on trying to adaptively shut down their strengths and minimalize risk and action, and that's a tough way to do things against Chavez.

I sort of agree with X's general jist, it's tough to find many outside of Duran, Pea, Napoles and possibly Armstrong in and around 135/140 who I'd view as being highly likely to beat him at his peak though there are enough people with a decent chance. Leonard and Gans are interesting though a lot might depend on the ruleset. Arguello and Williams too.

Mosley is hard to weigh up due to his size and not really being a genuine old school sized lightweight, but if it didn't turn out to be too much of a factor I think Chavez might well batter him tbh and have him only fighting for the purse after the halfway point. Any fighter against Chavez whose mentality is in question is in for a long night.

 

Ambers would've been an interesting dark horse I think. Very skilled infighter, strong, iron-willed and capable of countering on the move but maybe lacking in power and offensive dynamism.

 

I was going to say that!! I just thought Zivic, of the "old timers" might be better, guy was mean,dirty,mixed it with much bigger men too

 

Zivic is a good shout in fairness, I meant to acknowledge it in my previous post. A lot might hinge on the ref, but yeah, if you're too dirty for Henry Armstrong......

 

Mancini obviously beats Chavez at 135. How would that one be overlooked???

 

Id give pac a good chance

 

Mosley has an excellent chance as well

 

Chavez beats Pac at 130 and prob 135. Pac beats Chavez at 140, and quite obviously 147.

 

@ 135 I can see Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, Carlos Ortiz, Ismael Laguna, Ken Buchanan, Jose Napoles, Ike Williams have the best shot at peak Chavez.

 

Ike Williams would beat Chavez.

Buchanan? I think hes very competitive, but ultimately I would favor JCC over Buchanan.

 

I dont really see the weight being a factor between the 2. Marquez was pretty much useless at 147, while pac was excellent, yet he koed pac the fo. Same here, the main factor is style not weight.

Barrera was pretty much a poor man chavez (yeah he turned a bit more into a boxer by the time faced him but still). Pac just seem to be a perfect match for the mexican pressure style

 

I honestly think the Whitaker that fought Haugen and JLR (2) would have been a nightmare even for the same Chavez that beat Rosario.

 

Chavez has a real chance against Williams, though. Williams lost to routinely pressure fighters worse than Chavez. Sometimes really badly. If Ike isn't on form, then it could genuinely wind up looking like the Rosario fight IMO.

 

Barrera wasn't even a poor man's Chavez. He was VASTLY less talented than JCC, but more importantly than that, Barrera was smaller and had nothing like the chin, strength, and firepower Chavez possessed. It's a totally different fight for Pac.

 

Yeah, a similar thought went through my head as well. Not as far as a Rosario level pasteing but that Williams didn't always dominate aggressive fighters like the Jack fight. Not that Chavez was a pure pressure machine either, he could hold the ring centre, slip and counter as well as most when the mood took him.

 

Good points X. He was defensively sharper too imo, better guard with his chin down and better minimalistic punch slipper. A far greater heavy straight right too and less trouble with ditching fast, straight, accurate power punches. They were different levels of fighter really and I really like Barrera.

 

While the points are well taken, it must also be remembered that Barrera won zero rounds with two tries (apart from the bogus KD) so even being three times better than him doesn't necessarily bring a victory against Pac

 

We're talking about a period in Pac's career when lost (in the eyes of most) the first Marquez fight, and lost the first Morales fight. The Barrera 1 Pac is not beating Chavez - he wasn't polished enough.

Pac entered his true peak in the Morales rubber match. If you wanna argue for that Pac beating Chavez, fine.

 

I could see Sanchez beating Chavez IF he carried 130 as well as he did 126, but it's hard to speculate. I view Sal as a better fighter than Chavez, so if JCC won it would be on size/strength.

 

I've long thought Sanchez would've been excellent at 130, as we can see him against Nicky Perez there, he looks as good as he ever did. The extra pounds didn't diminish him at all. Same for Saldivar, actually, in the Laguna fight.

I think stylistically, Sanchez vs Chavez is an excellent match-up.