The "I NEVER was Impressed by Margarito" Bandwagon...

Beating him at 147 means nathan, Hatton looked shitty at that weight, he isn't the champ at that weight. P4P is a hypothetical category, it involves an 'all things being equal' calculation, its not a literal thing. That's why Floyd taking on Hatton at 147 isn't an attractive proposition, Hatton is not a P4P'er at that weight, even Floyd hasn't looked so great above 140; so,outside of the money, what does it really mean?

Same goes for Winky Vs Hopkins, why can't they just fight at 175? or even 160? - Winky probably doesn't belong above 160, he would have a hard time cracking the top 5 at 168 in my opinion, so what does a fight mean when at least one of the competitors is fighting outside of the weight where his credentials have been earned?

 

dsimon writes:

I only repeated it cause you said I didn't address it. No Maussa isn't better than Margarito but he is a tough opponent, who beat a fighter and who has fought fighters on a different proven level than Margarito... proven being the operative word. Are Clinton and Clottey elite fighters? Is Margarito in a tough division where there are superstars everywhere that cannot establish themselves? you know something like when Mosley, Trinidad, De La Hoya, Reid, Ward, Hopkins, Mayweather, etc were all within fighting range a few years back?

Is Santos an elite fighter? Yeah Margarito has been consistent but no matter how much you think weight detracts from Castillo's loss and no matter how much you make a case that Cintron and Clottey are elite guys... they are not. They are tough fighters and so is Margarito but not fighters on the level of guys like Castillo, Mosley, DE La Hoya, etc.

You seem to want to fall back on Margarito ruling a roost... well Ralph Kramden had a roost also... a veritable castle was his tenemant apartment and he was the king of his castle. But you know what? a sow's ear a silk purse does not make and until Margarito beats a top tier guy... at any weight nobody knows what he can do.

And frankly I don't see with my two eyes any evidence that Margarito can do much more than he has. His punches loop to the point where a lot of people wiser than me (Stinger among them) felt it was a prety easy call that Williams would get there first every time.

 

Hatton's 3 BEST Wins had NATHAN to Do w/"Hometown Ref's":nono: ...

Tszyu,Maussa,Castillo...

Floyd ISN'T Necessarily a TRUE Welter Either...CLEARLY,Floyd's BEST weight was 130...

Even when Cotto was Fighting @ 140,he'd Weigh Damn Near 160 on FIGHTNIGHT....CLEARLY,Cotto was Biding Time @ 140...

REED just CAN'T See How a Fight btwn 2 NON-Welters is DIMINISHED,if they Meet @ 147...It's NOT Hatton's TRUE Weight OR Floyd's...


REED

 

dsimon writes:

So you really think that Hatton is less of a threat to Mayweather than Margarito? Cause you are pulling stuff out of space with the ref comments:: . Most people would say that the totality of the evidence suggests otherwise. But then again there are still some idiots (Not you Mitchell) who STIll maintain that Judah is a serious threat at the top level of the division. I just disagree with you on this point. I don't care what weight they fight at, Floyd is not a physical fighter and in that regard Hatton is a very real threat to him at any weight.

 

By Definition,"Lb for Lb" Means IRREGARDLESS of Weight Class...

As Such,Ricky Hatton is 1 of THE 10 Best Fighters on the Planet IRREGARDLESS of Weight Class...AND he's UNDEFEATED...

Floyd is NO MORE a TRUE Welter than Hatton is...Them Meeting @ 147 DOESN'T Diminish the Fight N REED's Opinion...

BEATING Hatton @ 147 Means that Floyd Beat the REIGNING Jr Welter Champ(NOT @ his Weight,Obviously,but he STILL FOUGHT him)and an UNDEFEATED, Top 10 Lb for Lb'der All N 1....

So YOU'D Rather See Floyd vs.________(Insert ANY Welter's Name Here),than Hatton???


REED:dunno:

 

dsimon writes:

"Margarito" ::

 

Then, neither should fight there :dunno:
It's pretty obvious in any case that Hatton may be at a greater disadvantage with the extra weight than Floyd, even if the latter hasn't shown the same form against bigger guys like de la or baldomir...

 

dsimon writes:

I don't see the "obvious" advantage. The problem Hatton has is that he can't be as physically strong at that weight, but Floyd is not a physical fighter. Presumably the greater weight slows down Floyd and gives Hatton more power. As other posters have said neither guy is a true 147 pounder. Fighting at a catch weight negates any advantage. AS to why they do not fight at 140 I don't know but I don't think Ricky will be making 140 much longer for any of his fights.

 

Okay then, who are the fighters Vivian Harris has beat to make him more "proven"?

Diobelys Hurtado (who holds the distinction of getting KTFO by Pernell Whitaker)? Soulemayne Mbaye? Oktay Urkal? Juan Lazcano?

Those are solid wins, but no elite fighters there using your criteria.

And please don't say Stevie Johnston...that's a Boxrec win, because Johnston is about seven years removed from being a champion, wasn't considered a legit 140-pound contender, and was brought in as a substitute.

Again, Clottey, Cintron are almost unanimously considered top ten fighters. Santos was a champion and considered a top ten fighter (at a higher weight class).

Those are quality wins.

The only one you can come up with for Maussa is Harris.

But Maussa isn't in the top ten, and lost to guys not in the top ten...Morua and Garnica aren't close, btw.

 

It doesn't mean 'irregardless' in the literal sense. Rafael marquez would likely not be staying on any p4p list if he moved to 126-130. Faced with other 118-122, he shows how he ranks among his weight peers.

If Floyd fights at welterweight, I would rather see him fight (now) Williams, Cintron, Cotto, even Margarito, Mosley, Clottey etc., these guys appear to be solid welterweight contenders and champs...at junior welter, I would like him to fight Hatton, the rest are scrambling a bit in that division....at 154 where he last fought (I know he came in light), I'd like to see him against Ouma, Dzinziruk, (now) Alcine, even Simms, maybe Mosley, to a lesser extent Spinks...

Basically yeah, for me it is diminished...

 

Whoever is hot at the moment Floyd is ducking and has the style to beat him.. I remember how most of the haters were calling him a bitch for not fighting Vivian Harris because he had the style and power to beat him.

Floyd should've put on a clinic on Margarito, I would love it to happen. Shame Arum was on the way. That being said, Margarito remains being mediocre, he won't go nowhere. Sorry. I would love to see Cotto eat him up.

 

:nono: You're lucky the post history count, only goes back 20 pages >>,...I wanted to reintroduce Reed to his own wayward integrity,..I realise you gradually built a wall of defence based on a dossier of ficticious evidence that the Fraud camp failed to ever mention because obviously these temporary messageboard-alibuys never-existed,..

but INITIALLY,....

....Reed was 'disappointed', in his own words,... and encouraged us to focus on who now Margarito would fight, seeing as there was such an intense focus on who Floyd would fight,....... Are you sure that doesn't ring a bell?...

 

'presumably', 'I don't think'...
Let's stick to what actually is on record, Hatton comes in at 147, looks sluggish and lacking sharpness, swiftly returns to 140 with everyone saying he's not a natural welterweight. Floyd goes to 147, has to be a little cautious against the one big welterweight he fights but his movement and accuracy sees him through. Ricky had no problem making 140 against Castillo, this fight belongs at 140.

 

dsimon writes:

Harris was a prospect who was considered very talented and ready to fight at the upper echelons of the division. That was his status. His skills were the basis for this distinction and... he got turned away at the gate courtesy of Maussa.

Maussa is not an elite fighter. I made the point that Maussa is a solid opponent as you had dismissed him as inconsiquential. Lets say for the sake of the argument that I am wrong and Harris was not considered talented (despite bieng in Stewart's stable, etc) and lets say Maussa is god awful, because if this were true (it isn't) it still does not validate the fact that Margarito has never fought at the superstar status, the top echelon of boxing that guys like Mayweather, De La Hoya, Mosley, ect have fought at.

Margarito fought solid opposition. Are Clottey Cintron and Santos on the level of Zoo? of Castillo? of De La Hoya? or even of Judah?

 

What totality of evidence?

Hatton's had one fight at welterweight, where he looked very sub-par narrowly winning a decision against Collazo (by one point on my scorecard, based on the first round knockdown).

How is that a totality of evidence?

I think Margarito and Clottey would both be more difficult opponents at 147, and both can clearly carry the weight better.

 

dsimon writes:

I don't know why the fight happens at a particular weight. But what I do know is that there always seems to be a nefarious purpose that magically benefits Floyd during fight negotiations. I just think the advantages cancel out enough so that a Hatton Mayweather fight is a dangerous fight for Floyd.

 

dsimon writes:

I think you are making the weight class a bigger factor than it actually is but there is no proof either way. At any rate can you deny that Hatton is a threat to Mayweather.... and if you tell me "at 140 but not at 147" so help me god I better not be near my kitchen knife when you come into the restaurant.:: ::

 

Now you're changing the parameters of the discussion.

Harris was a "prospect and considered very talented"?

You've been basing everybody almost strictly off their resumes to this point, now you're going to how they were viewed at the time?

Why not mention the same argument with Williams...instead of just making the argument he's a unproven prospect (and no mention of how he was regarded/considered - when some viewed him very highly) when he beat Margarito?

Harris is a skilled fighter, but one who has been rumored to struggle to make the weight...part of the reason why he fades in fights (something he did badly in his last fight against Lazcano, btw).

Margarito hasn't fought the highest echelon fighters that other top fighters have done, but he has fought a higher level of opposition than you credit him for.

 

This is a disgraceful statement. This was the reasoning against DM/Jones. If you're a fan of boxing you should be wanting to see these fights, not making excuses for fighters who avoid each other.

Mayweather didn't and doesn't know how he'd do against Margarito. Even now he can't say he'd beat him. That fight will never be made now but it SHOULD have been.

 

This is an excellent post. Floyd may be as good as he thinks he is. He may be as good as his fans think heis but he still has to PROVE it. This was always my one gripe with Roy (who I liked), he got too much credit for fights he didn't take.

Too many fighters were considered beneath him and look at what's left now. A decent record which could have been much, much better in terms of fighters fought at least.

 

:nono: Pacquiao has already fought Barrera. Floyd never fought Margarito. How is that similar?

 

I would´ve loved to see Pac vs Mayweather....I think floyd will have too much pop and intelligence, but Pac would´ve made it interesting in the first rounds at least...

 

Margarito was undefeated for seven years at 147, made 7-8 title defenses amongst them many top ten contenders like Cintron and Clottey. Come back here when you can tell me with a straight face, youd´pick Judah over Clottey and Cintron. Of course you will say that, because Judah is an overrated loser. Judah knows Margarito would have smashed him up and send him back to NYC in a bodybag, that´s why he stayed away from him.

This is Roy Jones´career all over again. Floyd doesn´t have to fight anybody, because he is so much better than them. And shockingly REED is cheerleader numero uno.

 

Come on Dsimon, you already know I don't really rate marge and have never petitioned for floyd to fight him, ONLY because I thought there were better fights out there.

BUT - you can't use the logic "Should pacman fight barerra if he calls him out?"

Here is the crucial point, Floyd DIDN'T destroy marge, williams beat him. Where as pacman destroyed barrera, proving himself in the process.

It's like the others have said, floyd fans seem to be giving floyd credit for other people's wins :: ::

Why isn't floyd doing the exposing?

He hasn't had an impressive win over a good, prime opponent since Chico.

 

dsimon writes:

When did I say Floyd should get credit for beating Margarito? Why does my point get put into this proverbial bin of Floyd and Jones hatred?:: I don't believe any fighter should get credit for beating anyone they do not fight.

My point is about selecting an opponent for a fight. Obviously Floyd has not beat fightbeat's own Gerald Tucker... does it mean he should fight Tucker? :blobbox:

And before I go into this point in more detail.... Margarito should have a fight with Cotto. It makes sense now as it did when the fight was allegedly being put together. Who thinks that Cotto is a more legitimate opponent than Floyd for Margarito? I happen to think he is for all the reasons mentioned on this thread.

My point is that the quality of Margarito and his oppositionis such that Floyd should not make it a priority to fight him. There are better guys to fight out there... Like Hatton, who I think is more proven and more dangerous.

Not everybody who thinks Floyd is a class above Margarito in skill and prestige is a Floyd apologist. I just think he should be making the fight with Hatton instead of Margarito.

 

dsimon writes:

I was using Harris as an example of Maussa's opposition, I didn't say he was an elite guy. Why even make this point? it does not reflect on our debate in any way what so ever. Maussa was good enough to beat an up and comer, as a major underdog.

Williams was not as proven as Harris. And neither guy was an elite fighter aaaaanywayyyy:dunno:. This has no bearing on Margarito's opposition unless I was saying Harris was a superstar first tiere guy. You are twisting my point to make it sound like I was overhyping Harris to make Maussa look like gold.

Your bold faced paragraph: Ok. But do you really think Hatton is not a threat to Floyd? that this is an easy fight for Floyd instead of Margarito? You have been silent on this issue Mitchell:dunno:. :nono: Can you tell me with a straight e-face that given theor respective resumes, etc that the more dangerous guy isn't Hatton? And can you tell me that if Floyd decided to fight Margarito instead tomorrow all the Floyd haters wouldn't say he was ducking Hatton for Margarito a guy who lost to a prospect in his last fight. Finally accordingly would Floyd not be correct to answer his detractors that he was right to schedule Hatton as his next opponent given Margarito's perfprmance against Williams?

 

Dsimon,

I haven't been silent on the issue. I stated early on I thought Margarito was a better welterweight and tougher fight at 147 for Mayweather than Hatton.

As for resume, I don't base my opinion on a fighter entirely on resume.

But if you take their respective resume and project a fight at 147...I don't see Hatton beating Margarito or Clottey at welterweight...furthermore, I think both are tougher fights for Mayweather at 147 than Hatton.

As for the "ducking" argument, you can go to the lowest common denominator if you want....because I don't use the term "ducking" regularly.

The problem with using Harris as an example of Maussa's opposition is in large part he is his opposition. The only other somewhat significant win came against Resto, a good amateur who received some hype early on (including from Larry Merchant). Resto hasn't done anything professionally to back that up, however.

Maussa has four losses his past seven fights...and while you can certainly dismiss KO losses to Cotto and Hatton (neither of whom, I see knocking out Magarito)...but to guys like Arturo Morua and Manuel Garnica...neither of whom are ranked or considered even B level fighters.

Show me the last time Margarito lost to one (let alone two) fighters near that level.

As far as the "proven" argument between Williams and Harris, we'll see.

Williams is four years younger than Harris, yet he's had more fights...with no losses on his record.

Overall, he hasn't beaten the same level of opponents Harris has, but that doesn't mean he can't or won't.

 

clearly there are two extremes

1. There is Gerry Quarry, who fights everyone, dies young and brain damaged, and makes no money.

2.Then there is Floyd. Who fights nobody, is an asshole, and makes lots of money.

Floyd has not hit the middle ground, and he will, in time, come to be recognised as a trick-o-the loop man when its all said and done.

 

dsimon writes:

Maussa is a professional opponent. Tough to get by and if you fuck up against him you pay, as Harris learned. You need guys like that.

We don't know what level of fighter Margarito lost to in Williams, we just know the relative level of opposition Margarito has faced. But if you think Margarito is tougher than Hatton then we will agree to disagree. But it is a fact that Hatton is undefeated and has fought guys recognized as better oposition than Margarito.... maybe not at Welter but in the square circle.

 

dsimon writes:

So to you there is nobody you would rather see Mayweather fight than Margarito? :: Thats absurd IMO, but to each his own.