Joony's Top 10 Super Middleweights of All-Time

Ok. I might go as far as very good :: . But to me, Eubank was a good (or very good) fighter who was part of the mix of a good division at the time. That's not a knock on him...but I think he falls short of "great"...especially if he really did not want to even take a crack at Jones.

 

I can go along with this. I guess the difference between good and great is similar to a non-knockdown round being scored 10-9 or 10-8. Good/10-9 covers a lot of ground, whereas Great/10-8 should be reserved for something far beyond the standard.

agREED on the Jones part.

 

supposedly, roy's dad didnt want him to fight julian jackson because he didnt want his son to get 'hurt'. he also never fought liles or nunn. so i guess roy isnt great either.

 

Eubs is underrated. He is an all time great.

 

Good analogy. And to me...the great fighters at least attempt to fight the best available opposition. And it's not always about winning. For example...Tommy Hearns lost the two biggest fights of his career to Leonard and Hagler...but he actually took those fights and, after losing, spent years wanting rematches with both fighters. Taking on the best is definately one of my criteria for calling a fighter "great".

 

so i would assume you're gonna have a great reasoning behind on how roy pushed to fight the best available opposition? haha

 

Exactly.

It can be misleading/faulty thinking to penalize a fighter's standing because he "supposedly" did not want to fight a certain opponent.

In most instances we can't verify what actually did or did not go on behind the scenes....and if you use that measuring stick with one, you have to use it with all of them.

Eubank should be evaluated on the basis of what he DID accomplish in the ring.

And btw, the Thompson-Eubank scoring was right....Chris fought gallantly but did not win that bout.

Peace.

 

Kessler should be in the top ten already, #1 on sunday. :crafty:

Rocky should be above that bum Eubank for taking him to school.

 

but despite the unfinished business at 168 (and to a degree, at 175), Roy accomplished far more than Eubank when viewing their careers as a whole.

Eubank had a very good career, and lengthy WBO title reigns. But the first Benn fight is probably his only signature performance. Anyone else he beat at either 160 or 168 can only be classified as respectable or good, but certainly not great. He didn't beat anyone that would go on to be great (aside from Benn), anyone that used to be great or even anyone that had the potential to be perceived as great. Take away Benn, and his resume is steady, but hardly overwhelming.

 

Maybe not at 168, but you yourself rated Jones ABOVE Eubank...so your laughing rings a bit hollow. And if you recall...I said earlier in this topic...

So let's not try to make it sound like I said something that I did not. Jones' greatness is based on his remarkable physical gifts, his multiple world titles (including one at heavyweight), and some significant wins...not on his stay at 168. And even his time at 168 produced a dominant win over one of the best fighters of the last 20 years and one of the best fighters ever in that division - Toney.

And frankly...I used to criticize Jones more than anyone for his time at 168 (I even wrote a really long message about it on SecondsOut that Jake said he wanted to print up and put on his refrigerator :: ). But as the years have gone by and the more I hear the fighters I criticized Jones for not fighting were actually the ones who did not want a Jones fight...my attitude toward Jones has changed.

In any event...for their overall careers I would rate Jones significantly higher than Eubank.

 

Good post...and right on the money. And there's nothing wrong with being a very good fighter in a good division.

 

How does it enhance Roy's legacy now that Benn and Eubank admitted they wanted no part of him? :dunno:

 

yay jooney!

you go girl!

cupey please make jooney do more one on one video interviews! i'm a big fan of that

 

puhahaha.

fuck you, you polish queer.

 

It means you can no longer begin all time rankings at #1, because Roy is too good to just settle for 1. You have to start at .001... or simply have him 1 and make the next guy #5.

If Collins fucks around and finally admits he went out of his way to price himself out of a Roy fight? Forget it. There's never again a need for all-time rankings debate, unless you're debating who's the best AFTER Roy.

 

But this thread wasn't about "overall careers", was it? Nor was Joony's ranking....was it????

YOU took it there, you thread-jacking, misguided bastage!

Eubank KO 1 RJJ at 168.















































:: ::

 

Works for me.

 

Well, the discussion is about historical 168 lb. ranking....not which among these are "all-time greats" vs. which aren't.

I'd overall agree with your take, though.

Peace.

 

True...but Joony did refer to these fighters as "past greats" and I just don't think most of the fighters on this list qualify for that distinction. And I felt a bit of historical perspective was in order about the 168 lb division at the time Hagler was middleweight champ and Park's place in the pecking order. I think sometimes if folks were not following the scene at the time they sometimes don't have a real sense of what was actually going on. I remember most folks making fun of the Super Middleweight division at first.

In Park's case, the may have "Called out" Hagler...but the champion of a newly created division who won his title from an ok fighter who won the vacant title against a tough journeyman didn't have anywhere enough credibility to be anywhere on Hagler's radar at that time. There may have some folks interested in making that fight...but Hagler was a bit busy with the likes of Hearns, Leonard & Mugabi.

 

man what a crappy division. what good fighters there have been in this division spent very little time there.

 

all of the guys mentioned would beat up and KO every one of your favorite fighters.

 

word

 

Are you trying to be an obstinate, purist, legalistic, hair-splitting Tracie Callis-wannabe? :kick: :: ::

Past "greats" - in the division.

I got the intent...so did you....so stop complaining! :tease: ::

And yes, I got the Hagler point....no need to retype it. All Joons said is that Park called him out.

Relax, old-timer! ld:

 

:dunno:

Donny King?

 

Not bad, eh? :stir:

 

Nice article Joony :clap:

Commenting briefly on the points raised thus far:

I would agree that Nunn is somewhat contentious: his 'legacy' really is one of unfulfilled potential at 160 rather than a top ten all time 168 'reign'.

I just can't bring myself to rate Ottke- undefeated or no, only the truly biased would say his career didn't contain a few 'odd' decisions (and that is a generous description). I sure as hell wouldn't put him above Benn (who was arguably better at 160) generally, and definitely NOT the demonically possessed Benn who fought that brutal war with G-Man.

Eubank is a tough one to rate- his best wins were almost certainly the first Benn fight and him scraping himself off the canvas to beat Watson in their second fight (having arguably lost the first) but he was, as Joony rightly notes, never the same after that Watson fight. His punch resistance was still superb, but his killer instinct never really returned. In terms of discussing his being 'an all time great' or not, I think it's telling that he hardly ever went outside the UK to fight (at least Benn went to the US to fight a few times) which in my book, and many of those who criticise Calzaghe, counts for more than a little- albeit that this is a 'Top 10 168' list and NOT a 'Eubank is an all time great: discuss' article! :tease:

Oh yeah, and Kessler should be in there, methinks. Find out about that one, soon enough though...

 

I'm going with Double L on this one. The division does kind of suck.

Jones is the greatest to have fought in the division, but Calzaghe is greatest super middle champion.

Eubank was a very good fighter and a great by super middle standards which are lower than other divisions.

 

I think that's pretty harsh- it's worth remembering that the division is a young one, and moreover is one that is treated by most US fighters as either a 'stop off' weight before moving to light heavyweight or a place to 'move up' after doing not a whole heap at 160.

Even RJJ, almost certainly the best fighter to have stayed at the division for sufficient length to warrant a place on this list, moved onwards and upwards to the mega-bucks fights elsewhere once they came calling.

Which means that it's a division which gets left mainly to the euro fighters...

In light of that: Eubank, Benn, Kessler, Calzaghe, Collins, Ottke (if you must) plus RJJ isn't too bad for the last 15 years (ish) of a 30 year old division imo...

 

Nice article and I agre with it for the most part.

 

Liles never won a shootout with a killer like McClellan. No way Benn should be anywhere near Frankie "I might fight nextyear, maybe, against Stevie Little" Liles.

Benn

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Liles