Blatant copy of The Holyfield thread... "Would Lewis, at his best, have beaten the Tyson who defeated Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs and Spinks?"
no... but the older LL the one that beat Tyson/Holy would have a better shot than the young LL who ko' Razor/Bruno...
I don't know if I'd say that...a prime Tyson is a monster and a hell of a fight for any all-time great, IMHO. But I've always thought that Lewis' combination of height, reach, style, punch repertoire, strength and defense/tying up would give Tyson all sorts of issues. Much lesser fighters who had some of these elements were able to frustrate Tyson in stretches. Could Tyson catch Lewis with a shot or a powerful combination and end it early? Sure. But I've always thought Lewis weathers the storm....I do think Lennox's chin tends to be a bit underrated. Peace.
No. Prime Mike KO's Lewis within 5. Tyson's footwork coming in would be too quick for Lummox, and with Mike's handspeed, he'd definitely land big eventually.
You've proven useless in 99.9% of MM topics, but you do have a point that deserves addressing. Douglas's footwork was good enough to beat Tyson, and Lewis had better footwork than Douglas, but that isn't the point. The point is landing combos from outside and moving away, and clinching on the inside when you have to. Tyson has NO clinch defense. Lewis would give Tyson a shitload of trouble if he didn't get knocked out in the first three rounds.
Lewis didn't attempt an early KO on the 2002 Tyson because Tyson was a walking dead man and Lewis just took his time and toyed with the guy and did as he pleased at his own pace. Prime Tyson's early rushing and quicker pace would force Lewis to unleash the heavy artillery right away(right cross, left jab-right hand, and ruthless uppercut) and Tyson would feel the dreaded impact that would make him go into a shell until Lewis takes him out for good. Tyson at 220lbs gives up too much strength and size to the 250lbs Lewis who has absolutely zero fear of him. Lewis takes him out anytime between 4-6 rounds. The result would never change no matter when they fought. Lewis had zero fear of Tyson and would own him everytime. His style is perfect for exposing Tyson. Tyson's an overrated bum beater who scared his opponents before the bell even rang. It's just more of a Buster Douglas beatdown except Lewis has twice the power of Douglas and twice the skills.
Im with X & Joony, the answer's right there in round one of their actual fight, IMO : no. Tyson out-timed him, out jabbed him, reached his chin several times with left hooks and generally controlled the pace and centre of the ring. Hanzy or Rubio'll argue that the fight changed because Lewis made adjustments but I think Tyson just slowed down and Lewis stepped up to the fill the space. Tyson was SHOT to peices, a one round fighter summoning 3 minutes of what used to come naturally through sheer will. 2000 Lewis would make adjustments and make a close and hard fight of it, but I think 1988 Tyson forces out a fairly close decision with the JAB. 116-112.
I think the fight changed because Tyson forgot just how hard Lewis can hit. Nobody in Tyson's prime had the arsenal combined with the size, strength, power and overall skills of Lewis. Not Ruddock, not Tucker, not Bonecrusher, and damn sure not Mitch Green nor Jose Ribalta. All tall guys but very flawed. Although I always thought Tucker was a man who never recognized his true potential. He could've done much better against Tyson if he tried. He damn well stopped a bullcharging Tyson in his tracks and lifted him off the canvas with an uppercut which came from under a hook. And Tyson had a tremendous amount of trouble hurting Tucker. Anyway, I believe there's a very good reason why Tyson was hesitant in fighting Lewis. He wanted nothing to do with Lewis in '96 nor any time after. The fight only happened because Tyson was trapped and was forced into it. Tyson's a bully, he's not particularly a super brave warrior who welcomes a war. He's a frontrunner who likes to be in charge and doesn't like being controlled. And he's never proven he can deal with adversity and come back and win.
I agree with everything individual thing you said here (other than the first sentence which is debatable). Still doesn't add up to much of an argument for picking Lewis though. Sure Lewis was better than Tucker or Ruddock, but Mike won those fights with quite a bit to spare. Sure Lewis hit hard (way too hard for 36y/o Mike's heart), but so did the aforementioned and Mike kept coming forward against them regardless. The crux of your argument is in your last paragraph, and it's a totally reasonable position. I just personally believe that Tyson was mentally stable enough under Rooney to deal with a close tough fight without crumbling. That corner were like family for him & the trust he had them was a major calming influence on him. Thats just my perception. And as I said before I think that if Mike DID keep his shit together he'd be able to outtime Lewis to a decision.:blobbox:
Well I'm not denying that Tyson couldn't beat Lewis if he was at his best. It's really difficult to tell what might happen in a fight between 2 fighters at their peaks the level of Tyson and Lewis. Hell for all we know, Tyson hits Lewis low and Lewis hits him after the bell and a riot ensues! LOL!
Brother Hut*Hut...you got all of that from one 3-minute round? :: Come on, bro...not much that can be taken away from that. And that round also revealed some other quite interesting things if you're going to take that route...Lewis could defend against Tyson pretty well using his height, shoulders and footwork; Tyson landed two leaping left hooks on Lewis (one partially deflected) and Lennox went nowhere; and it was relatively easy for Lewis to tie Tyson up and walk him back (and that one was expected and is key to a Lewis victory). Though Tyson did slow down a bit - once Lewis set his feet in the second round on and started to dial in his jab and commit to it - the fight changed. Tyson had "success" with his jab in the 1st round because Lewis was backpedaling and focusing on blocking and tying Tyson up....which is why Manny had to tell Lewis to settle down. The fight really fails to answer what would have happened in the later rounds, assuming Lewis gets through to them (and my bet is he would). Even in his early prime, Tyson tended to stop opponents in the early part of fights - the only real noticeable exception being Ribalta who he stopped in the 10th (and maaaaaybe Biggs and Ruddock b/c they were stopped in the 7th and the Ruddock stoppage has always been dubious to me). Net - if you got through the early rounds, you had a good chance of going the distance as Tyson's workrate, power, and stamina decreased. Tyson had a very good jab in his good years...but it was always used with the intent to come inside and unleash his combinations, not to win rounds or control opponents with it. For Lewis - it was a weapon, and one of choice. I think it would have been a hell of a fight but I've always thought that Lewis' combination of factors would have been a nightmare for Tyson. Peace.
How the hell can it be accurate or inaccurate when it's a MYTHICAL matchup? :laughing: :: That means nobody has a clue what happens unless it actually happens.
Actually... Most who saw Forrest and Mosley fight as ammy's knew this was coming and others who broke down the fight saw the impending danger for Mosley. Also, many had LONG predicted that Tyson's downfall would be Tyson. Try again. :nono:
Lewis owns Tyson. It's been written in the history books as Lewis KO8 Tyson. That's how it is. Move on.:tease:
Tyson got brutally raped that night. It had more to do with Douglas than it did with Tyson. Tyson got a little too comfortable knocking out scared bums.
Yes, Musze...lest you forget, it was you and I who nervously picked Mosley to beat Forrest in a much tougher than expected fight (when everyone else was picking Mosley by blow-out)... But nevertheless, we both picked Shane. I was there. :nono: As for the second sentence...what do you mean? I assume you meant Douglas...are you seriously saying that many had LONG predicted that Douglas would beat Tyson? :eeeek: Ya gotta be kidding me, old friend. Or do you mean that he'd be his own worst enemy? In that case, you're right....but NOBODY thought that meant a Douglas victory that night in Tokyo - no one.
IMO, prime Tyson would have had only one real hope of winning this fight, and that would be by landing the sort of bomb that Rachman and McCall landed on Lewis' chin... ...which, it goes without saying, is far from an impossibility. HOWEVER it remains something of an improbability, imo. Lewis really is Tyson's worst nightmare, prime Mike or no- all reach and height and jabbing and fighting in and out of the clinch. And that's before you factor in Lewis' big, straight right... I would see it panning out similar to their actual fight, with Tyson firing early and looking for the big shot to win it, before Lewis finds his range with the jab, hits Tyson often enough to make him hesitate to come in so often and then eventually sets up those big right hands. I just think the early Tyson blast lasts a few rounds longer- say 3, maybe 4 rounds. Tyson COULD feasibly catch Lewis in that time to end it, but more often than not I don't see him doing so. Lewis for me then opcorn: MTF
Its just like Lex Luther says, Donny. One man can read War & Peace and come away thinking its a simple adventure story, the next can read the back of a chewing gum wrapper and come away with the secrets of the universe! :: But it IS the best touchstone we have, IMHO. And it's consistent with how we've seen Tyson deal with other exceptionally tall heavyweights in his prime, isn't it? He could outtime them, but struggled to get off with anything meaningful before being clinched as you said. Conversely we've seen Lewis against other guys with effective jabs where he struggled to establish any rythem or authority. And without that space and time his jab usually afforded him he became pretty mortal...Bruno, Mercer, Rahman I, Im sure there are other examples. So thats the type of fight I envision. Scrappy with lots of short broken exchanges and clinches with Mike's getting off with marginally more, especially early. I doubt the fights we see in our minds eye are radically different actually. I dont see Mike knocking him out or dominating I just dont see Lewis finding the room or rythem to stamp his authority on the fight from round 5 onwards as you do either. Again, with all these Tyson discussions at some point it just comes down to how much you think he declined between 1988 and 1990. If you think he was still really 'prime' when he fought Douglas and Ruddock then your gonna have a totally different perception of how he fairs in any of these match ups.
