In your opinion who are the top ten great boxing geniuses/pugilistic scientists ever!

What's with the Kunta Clay shit here guys :warning:

 

Hello guys im new here and this is an interesting topic.

The starter of the thread said multidimensional guys with talent, etc.

To me, the best and smartest fighter I have ever seen is Sugar Ray Leonard. He can fight any style, and he always finds a win to win, always has a good gameplan, etc.

I don't think people Like Roy Jones or Muhammad Ali should qualify for this thread because they fought the same way all the time, and when they didn't, they were made to look bad.

Once Roy lost his ability to feint people out of throwing, with age and other factors, fighters were able to get inside and make him fight in a way that he is not effective in.

Same goes for Ali, when he wasn't the mover he showed in flashes in his second career and in his first, he looked ordinary against people who brought it to him, even his tour of europe in the mid-60's was littered with awful fights where guys that didn't belong in the same galaxy as him were made to be good.

So I think someone like Hagler, who could succeed boxing or brawling, and leonard, or Salvador Sanchez which someone mentioned, or even someone like Evander Holyfield, even though he's not the most gifted, he can still be successful with pure boxing or brawling (though not anymore.)

So my list would read

1) Leonard
2) Sanchez
3) Robinson
4) Hagler
5) DLH
6) Monzon
7) Holyfield
8) Roy Jones Jr.
9) Floyd Mayweather Jr.
10) Muhammad Ali

(with the last few on the pure talent side, but not so much with the multidimensionality)

 

Yeah, but McCallum never did a "Chicken Dance" in the ring. And ultimately...that is what this topic is about (outside of creating yet ANOTHER list that Sly can put RJJ & Mayweather at the top of). Sly likes his fighters quick and flashy.

Jones was a remarkable athlete and his physical advantages helped keep him one step ahead of most of his opposition for quite a while, but once his advantages started to fade, his time at the top went with them. Like folks like to say, he never had a backup plan or plan 'B" when he couldn't just outquick his opponents. Unlike Ali...who was able to remain on top in the 70's against a better division than he faced in his heyday by adapting his style as he got older.

RJJ was a great fighter with remarkable physical gifts, but I don't know that I'd call him a "genius" in the ring. Maybe if he was able to come back from his losses and post at least one significant win showing that he could outthink his opponent in the ring, not just outquick him.

Yes to Hopkins, Mayweather, Hagler, Leonard, Robinson, Moore, Charles, Sanchez, Arguello, Whitaker & Michael Spinks.

 

What's your actual top 10 list, so that there's no ambiguity. I want to see who you've LEFT OUT!!

 

I'd add Archie Moore and his daddy, Ezzard Charles.

 

:doh:

Beat me to it.

 

Guys....as I said from the top, this is a subjective list. There's no point in you gentlemen pointing out fighters that shouldn't have been excluded if your not willing to show your lists as well and open yourselves up to the same criticism.

 

:bears:

 

1. Duran
2. Sal Sanchez
3. Hagler
4. Leonard
5. Hopkins
6. Monzon
7. Chavez
8. R. Lopez
9. JMM
10. MAB

 

MAB and JMM over RJJ and PBF?

:laughing:

 

how can you call RJJ a pugilistic genius when he's shown almost zero ability to compensate for lost reflexes with skill, strategy or otherwise?

and PBF? he's fast, but anyone who's that boring to watch can't be labelled a genius.

 

:clap: Athletisism and skill are two very different things.

 

you want an actual list from him? no way. it's much easier to throw out random names, attach no rankings to them, and name more than 10. and then act like everyone else who's managed a list (of ten and with rankings) has enjoyed the same freedom. that's how donnybrook rolls. that's the best we can expect from mr. non-commital. ::

 

and that means what as far as my statement? wouldn't you agree that elite skills is a necessary prerequisite for the title of, "pugilistic genius?"

 

Hut Hut is agreeing with you Double. Just accept it and be happy. :dunno:

 

oh. ::

sorry. i'm not used to that. ::

 

As opposed to the excitement of Carlos Monzon?

 

It NEVER Ceases to AMAZE REED how Peeps Use Roy's Athletic Gifts AGAINST Him ...Almost to the Point of DIScrediting him BECAUSE of this...To a LESSER Degree, the SAME Occurs w/Ali...

It's NOT like Roy was just Some Quickhanded Fighter who BEAT Guys to the Punch:nono: ...AU CONTRAIRE!!!...

More Times than Not, Roy BAITED his Opponents Into the EXACT Shot he WANTED to Hit them w/...It Takes a HIGH Degree of Boxing ACUMEN to Do That...

& Just So U Know, Roy COPED w/the Decline N his Athletic Ability for SEVERAL Years, Most of Ya'll Apparenly DIDN'T Notice he had Slipped...But let's NOT Pretend that Roy was In his "PRIME" when he Lost to Tarver & Glencoffe, Cause he WASN'T:nono: ...He was Anywhere from 2-3 YEARS REMOVED from his "Prime" by that Point...

& Let's NOT Pretend that Roy DIDN'T Show SKILLS in his Fights w/Ruiz & Virgil Hill, to Name a Few...

Seems like ALOT of Ya'll WANT to Believe that Roy Jones was just some "Athlete" who LOST 1nce his Physical Gifts Started to Decline, but that's COMPLETE Bullshit...



REED

 

Hey REED,

On the other hand, should we also pretend that a large part of RJJ's success DIDN'T come from his remarkable physical gifts?

Every time there is a poll or someone asks us to make a list of the fastest or most physically gifted fighters, RJJ is on or near the top of everyone's list...even the lists of the folks that don't like him. So I think we're all in agreement with that.

And I don't disagree with what you say about RJJ luring opponents into punches, but more often than not...his ability to land such punches was at least partially due to his freakish handspeed. All during his prime years I heard RJJ fans marvel about how he landed punches that nobody else could...and that was due to his physical gifts at least as much as his in the ring intelligence.

And...if we say RJJ was "past prime" when he faced Tarver and Glencoffe (and I will agree with this, but not the idea that some folks would have me swallow that Jones was like Ali vs. Holmes). So if RJJ's physical gifts were in decline at the time of these fights, and he was unable to adapt his style to overcome fighters that most think he would have handled just a few years earlier...then that is excactly what I am getting at. RJJ was unable to use his ring smarts to make up for his waning physical abilities. And since you brought up Ali...that is what Ali WAS able to do. Ali WAS able to use his ring smarts to compensate for HIS waning physical abilites.

I wouldn't call Jones "dumb" in the ring. Zab Judah is similarly physically gifted and he never came close to achieving the status of RJJ. So there was obviously thinking going on in RJJ's prime. But despite being a complete idiot most of the time...Judah still won titles in two weight classes.

IMO...it's a stretch to call RJJ a "genius" in the ring. That doesn't mean he's not a great fighter or that he didn't think in the ring.

 

in the immortal words of Mayweather..."YEP"

Couldn't have said it any better. Hopkins is a master in there

 

REED just Gets the Feeling that Peeps DISCREDIT Roy BECAUSE of his Physical Gifts, which ISN'T Fair...Since WHEN is that a BAD Thing???:dunno:

What's GROSSLY OVERLOOKED is the FACT that Roy had to HONE those Physical Gifts...It's NOT like he just Walked in a Gym w/Great Physical Gifts & DOMINATED Everybody from Day 1...He Used to Get THE SHIT Beaten Out of him, but his Old Man WOULDN'T Let him Quit...

Roy Jones WORKED @ Maxmizing his Physical Gifts...As Such, when REED Hears Peeps INSINUATING that Roy was "Only" Good BECAUSE he was Fast or Whatever, it's a DEFINITE SLIGHT...

Meldrick Taylor was FAST...Michael Nunn was Fast...As U Noted, Zab Judah was FAST...But CLEARLY, Roy Brought MORE to the Table than JUST his Physical Gifts, which is why he Achieved MORE than All of those Cats COMBINED...Roy BEAT Better Fighters than ANY of those Cats & Won MORE titles N MORE Weight Classes than ANY Of those Cats...

Zab is LIVING PROOF that Having Speed ISN'T Enough...Zab's 1 of THE More Physically GIFTED Fighters EVER...But Knowing HOW to USE your Gifts is even MORE Important than HAVING those Gifts, in REED's Opinion...That's where Boxing ACUMEN Comes into Play...

There was ALWAYS a Degree of SCIENCE to Roy's Fights...He RARELY just Walked Out there & OVERWHELMED his Foes by SHEER Physicality...More Times than Not, "Throwaway" Shots were Fired to GUAGE his Opponents Response, THEN Roy would Eventually Lower the Boom...

NO WAY was Roy on the Ali-Holmes Level of Being "Past Prime" (REED Wholeheartedly AGREES w/U on that Point & SHAME on ANYBODY who Suggested Roy WAS on that Level of Decline), but like REED Said, Roy DID Show VISABLE Signs of SLIPPAGE @ Least 2-3 Years PRIOR to Facing Tarver...

On that Note, he DID Show that he could COPE w/his WANING Physical Gifts During that Stretch...Roy Became MUCH More FLAT-Footed & Made Other SUBTLE Adjustments to COMPENSATE for what he Lost...Not to Mention the FACT that Roy BEAT Tarver PRIOR to the KO Loss...Roy OVERCAME Diminished Athletic Ability AND a DRASTIC Weight Loss in a SHORT Period of Time, yet he BEAT Tarver...

& After 10 Rounds, Roy was In SERIOUS DANGER of LOSING that 1st Fight...But Roy Sucked it Up & WON the Last 2 Rounds...If that ISN'T an Example of ADAPTING, what Is??:dunno: ...

& Even though he Appears to B Taking MEANINGLESS fights, Roy's Still NOT Retired Yet...The Opportunity is STILL There for Roy to Register Another SIGNIFICANT Win...



REED

 

Boxing geniuses and puglistic scientists.

That is most definitely NOT about looking pretty. I don't see where you're getting this from.

And how is multi-dimensional different from multi-faceted? ::

If you can't see how versatile Hopkins is in the ring and in his approach to different fighters with different styles...then there simply isn't much to talk about.

He is incredibly intelligent in the ring and will shut his opponent down systemically no matter what the style, for the most part.

He can go from a cautious counterpunching boxer to a mauling, smothering pressure fighter to defensive cutsie from fight to fight, and often within the same bout.

Of course, this is looking at his career as a whole, which is an important distinction to keep in mind.

Hopkins does everything well.

Peace.

 

::

Well, screw Sly's PREFERENCES.

If we are talking boxing GENIUSES and pugilistic SCIENTISTS, that speaks to me of intelligence, adaptability, versatility, adjustment, multi-dimensionality, etc., etc. ad nauseum. ::

Looking flashy has little to do with it.

Peace.

 

Jesus, what a bunch of crybabies.

"Donny won't make a list, wahhhh, WAHHHH!! It's not FAIR!" ::

Great topic - but most of you already know by now that I used to obssess with lists....but don't anymore.

I'd rather engage in discussion and learn and debate that insist on lists and who should be #4 and who should be #7 and who is tied for #10 and who gets "honorable mention." ::

But since you may hold hate & rancor in your heart if I don't do it and it may cause you insomnia, here goes in no particular order:

1. Ezzard Charles

2. Archie Moore

3. Mike McCallum

4. Sugar Ray Robinson

5. Jose Napoles

6. Carlos Ortiz

7. Miguel Canto

8. Finito Lopez

9. Bernard Hopkins

10. Floyd Mayweather

:eeeek: ::

Peace.


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Roy was a master of setting traps, so much of a master.....his opponent would stop fighting because he would get so confused from the counter punching, he would give up and go defensive. Then that's when Roy would attack, they didn't know whether to shit or go blind. The speed only made it that more frightening, but let's not over-simplify his wins based on pure ability :dunno:

 

You're talking to the wrong poster...I'm not the one involved in the RJJ "talent or skill/intelligence" debate.