dsimon writes: HBO and their stupid punch stat numbers are ill conceived and useless. HBO has made it a point to take every opportunity to disparage a fighter and often make comments about how a fight is going 3 seconds into the fight when two guys are obviously feeling each other out. I am almost to the point that has driven metamuse to put on HBO Latin to watch the fights. But of all the sins of HBO the punch stat numbers are the worse... they have started an attirude which, I feel, is detrimental to boxing. Suddenly people talk about the amount of punches thrown as if it is the most important thing there is. Fighters are even encouraged to impress the judges with punches thrown. I hear members who I otherwise respect here on the boards talk about Joe Calzighe throwing so many punches as if this is why he beat Kessler. I hear other members dismiss a fighter who throws less meaningless punches.... a guy like Hopkins, as though this is a real measure of success, despite the fact that in the case of Hops he beat Hops and Tarver, two guys who are fairly busy in the ring. So boxing now is a sport with less rounds, bigger gloves, and a sport where a guy should impress the judges by simply being busy. I call bullshit and frankly this attitude has crept into the pantheon of acceptability through HBO's BS statistics. There have always been guys like Williams who are busy fighters and throw a lot of punches. It is a style not something integral to the sport. Some idiots on this board think Williams can beat Mayweather exclusively because he throws a lot of punches! Why don't we eliminate the middle man and simply put two guys in the center of the ring back to back and have them try to throw as many punches in a three minute period as possible and score the round for the guy who throws the most? Lets turn boxing into bowling where the guy does not have to have his punch stat numbers inconvenienced by an opponent defending. Personally I would rather change Bowling to a sport where as yo throw the ball some 300 pound Samoan gets to disrupt you a bit by trying to bowl you over.... but thats just me.:: I think Williams beat Margarito but I do understand the comment made by some that the defense of a lot of these punches was overlooked. Judges don't seem to appreciate defense and the actual effect of punches on a fighter anymore. Look at how the stupid judges had Taylor ahead on the cards by a large margin against Pavlik for example. The notion that punches thrown indiscrimanantly is a factor in a fight is a bias towards a style of fighting and it negates other things that fighters do in the ring and it negates the most important aspect... the effect of a punch on the opponent. Ring generalship, defense and effective punching should be more important considerations. HBO started this shit and it is contagious as many who should know better on this board talk about punches thrown as if it alone should determine efectiveness. Yes it is a good style to throw a lot of punches. It is also a good style to fight like Floyd and Toney... two of the best incidentally, who throw a few punches and make them count, and can counter punch effectively. It is a good style to have KO power like Pavlik as well and to throw punches in tight like Cotto and Hopkins (where punches cannot be seen). No style should be better. Any idiot can get in a ring and throw a lot of punches. I can punch a bag now going full steam ahead for 5 minutes straight.... doesn't mean I am a boxer.
i agree. and add in the fact that HBO's punch-stats are reported selectively, largely in an effort to fortify Lederman's card, and we're left with a broadcast that is not only useless and annoying, but one that distorts reality and is hugely misleading as to what's happening in front of us.
Compubox means little. Guys are so fast that it's hard to be accurate anyway. According to Compubox, Mayweather and De La Hoya landed a combined total of over 340 punches, and Trinidad landed 166 punches on De La Hoya.
dsimon writes: I like to hear the occasional comment by Merchant and if it was not for that I would turn the sound down. Even Manny has become a shill with little to say imo.
I couldn't agree more, Dsimon. Well done! Punch stats were NEVER, EVER meant to be used as a diagnostic or "proof" of how a fight went. EVER. It is only supposed to be directional at best....only one of a series of observations and tools and 'features' to enhance fight excitement and commenting. Instead, it's become the definitive yardstick for measuring who won and who lost a fight, and by "how much." And that's being encouraged by HBO/commentators as much as by the fans. And that's simply wrong. 1. It's subjective and has human error 2. Related to the above, will often count partially deflected/blocked/evaded punches as landed 3. Doesn't account for the "cleanliness" or force or skill of a punch...if it lands, it counts just the same no matter HOW it lands 4. Hijacks the fundamental premise that fights are scored BY ROUND - NOT by punch landed!!!! This is perhaps the most significant issue. When I hear someone say "Fighter A OUTWORKED Fighter B", that usually sends up a warning flag. Outworked does NOT equal outlanded. :nono: Peace.
:: You must be fed up with Lampley. I nearly choked on a Dorito when he spouted out that punches thrown are much more important then punches landed during the Calzaghe/Kessler bout. Then Lederman came on to tell us of Calzaghes total domination after Kessler had just won a round early on and I had to stay myself to keep from kicking in the TV screen. My wife thought I went mad for a second there.
Punch stats mean a lot. Unless they don't. HBO does spin them unabashedly, but that's a problem with HBO and not punch stats. Hmmm...HBO being partisan? No surprise there. Throwing punches can be part of ring generalship or in can be a complete waste of energy. I don't think you'll find too much inaccuracy in punch stats if you check them out. I could be wrong, but I think, for the most part, they provide a valuable service.
As long as they are not taken out of perspective. And problem is, they often are - beginning with networks, promoters and even the fighters themselves. Nor do they educate younger/less knowledgeable fans about what to truly look for. I'm not sure about their accuracy....it seems to vary wildly. Peace.
I thought Lampley said that sometimes it's more important to the judges. Not implying that it's right, but saying that's how it sometimes goes. I was a little intoxicated so maybe I heard him wrong.
With Lamps it's hard to tell. I think he mentioned the judging but he seemed to condone the practice, certainly when it came to Calzaghe. He wasn't exactly throwing it out as an example of bad judging.
dsimon writes: :: Very apt description Noby. The kids learn all the good four letter words on fight night:doh:. Lederman.. aw christ, I would love to wait til he was good and drunk, put him in a car parked on one of our worse hilly hills here, pop the brake cables, including the emergency brake and put a camera on the dash.:stir: ::
dsimon writes: Actually your first sentence/paragraph is the way it should be. I mean it sounds kind of cryptic :: but I know exactly what you mean..... Sometimes in a fight it means a lot and sometimes it doesn't. It just seems to me that unlike Showtime, for example, HBO has basterdized punch stat numbers... made it more important at the exclusion of other things that are more important and ripped it out of context as though it is supreme. The statistic itself is relevant but can be very misleading primarily because if cannot consider the defense involved with those punches, or the quality of those punches.
i agree 1 half decent punch is worth 100 calzaghe slaps, thus rendering the punchstats worthless :shit:
one other thing about punch-stats, when it comes to HBO: it's really not fair to attribute Sloppy's success entirely to punch output either, as if all he has to do is go in there and throw punches. or any other fighter for that matter.
Good points Dsimon.. this bit here seriously made me laugh coffee out my nose Why don't we eliminate the middle man and simply put two guys in the center of the ring back to back and have them try to throw as many punches in a three minute period as possible and score the round for the guy who throws the most :laughing:
dsimon writes: Yes. I actually made a point of saying so much because I didn't want to detract from Calzighe's victory.
dsimon writes: :: When you picture it it is funny as shit. Thats what I hate about bowling.... it is the same conditions every time. Bowling would be great if as you let the ball fly a 300 pound Samoan came flying at you and if you didn't release in time... Kabaaaaam!!!!! ::
You know brother Dsimon, sometimes punch stats do show something though.. I always think of the DLH-Pea fight... IMO.. and many people I know, Pea simply won that fight flat out. DLH was more aggressive but was punching air all night and at times Pea made him look like an amatuer vs a master punch stats in that fight showed, Pea threw more, landed more, and got hit less.. what they dont show is that the "golden boy" was an HBO cash cow and pea was on the downside.. so... Goldy has to win
