Vargas' ability to handle punchers...

It's funny, even though Vargas will go down in history as a guy who fell short of greatness and lost most of his best fights, people seem to overlook that he very arguably beat the best guy he ever fought, which was Winky Wright.

People have always tried to use that fight to put down Vargas in spite of that result, saying things like "Winky fought the wrong fight", or "Winky was robbed!" But personally, I've always thought this fight was a classic example of how styles make fights.

I think when Vargas wasn't fighting a puncher, he was a damn good fighter and very tough to beat. Even a helluva fighter like Winky Wright (who whupped Vargas' conquerors like Mosley and Tito easily), couldn't decisively outfight Vargas, despite giving as gutty and determined an effort as he's ever given, simply because he wasn't a puncher.

But against just about every real, world class puncher he's fought (ie: Tito, DeLaHoya, Mosley twice, and now Mayorga), though all were lesser fighters than Winky, Vargas lost to them all in the end, and most of them by brutal KO.

I suppose Ike Quartey could be considered an exception, but I think he's the only one I would consider as such. (Personally, I wouldn't rank Yori Boy Campos on the level of the punchers I listed, because I feel he was only a big puncher at the clubfighter level, NOT at a world class level).

In his most recent fight, Vargas tried to make Mayorga come up in weight as much as he could to give himself a "size" advantage and to lessen the impact of Mayorga's punches, but he still couldn't beat him in the end.

This isn't to say that Vargas was totally impotent against punchers (except for the 2nd Mosley fight, he gave them all competitive fights)... but it seems like overcoming punchers was just some kind of barrier that he could never break, no matter how hard he tried.

I say all this because people speculate a lot about what it was that "ruined" Vargas, or held him back from becoming great (ie: steroids, injuries, being rushed into big fights, etc.), but I think very simply he just couldn't deal with punchers. :dunno:

Thoughts?

 

Mosley is not a huge puncher.

 

i wouldn't call Winky a better fighter than Tito, Mosley or ODLH

 

Mosley, Trinidad and De La Hoya were NOT lesser fighters than Winky Wright. No way, no how.

 

Shane and DLH are not really "punchers"

 

In others words, Cuban Hawk - EVERYONE disagrees with you.

 

dsimon writes:

I think the reason for Vargus' relative success and failures has to do with his need to try to outpunch, outmuscle his comp. Cuban Hawk makes a good point in that skill wise Vargus was there on the elite level. he just chose to fight a certain way.

What is funny to me is that remembering Vargus as compared to Cotto, Cotto has jelled now and people have forgotten Torres, etc. But Fernando coming up the ladder was a lot more well rounded and beat guys with finesse a lot of the times. But yeah he had the need to engage in the big fights.

 

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

 

Nando's lucky he wasnt around in the same era as Julian Jackson. Or else he woulda been granted his dream to die in the ring.

 

i just think Vargas was ruined by Tito's plaster-parised hand-wraps. He was severely hurt in his next fight against Rivera (a non-puncher if there ever once was), and was next hurt significantly by his sparring partner (forget his name). And this was a guy who previously has never been hurt severely, despite having faced guys like Quartey and a prime Campas.

Vargas doesn't get enough credit too for some of his interim wins (those happening between his biggest fights) - wins over the likes of Joval and Castillejo in which he had little if any trouble winning rounds and coming away with decisive wins (can't remember if he stopped either of them).

Also, his first performance against Mosley, admittedly an older and slower one than the one ODH fought, was on a par with ODH's in terms of how close the fight was, with the exception of course being the gargoyle eye, which I'm not even sure was due to a punch if you ask me.

Obviously, Vargas' decline was due to a multitude of factors (weight problems in between fights, beatings at the hands of over-taped gloves, chronic back injury and thyroid problems), but when you consider all these obstacles (some weaknesses), he achieved a hell of a lot, especially in terms of a loyal fan-base and in general exciting performances every time out.

 

I'm not sure it's that emphatic, especially if we're talking about a fight at 154, which is where Vargas spent most of his career.

 

Add me to that list also.

 

I would take this seriously but you just said that Campas was in his "prime" when he fought Vargas.

Was Campas even good enough to have a prime?

 

so you're saying it's unreasonable to suggest that at the point in time when Campas had won his one and only recognized championship at 154, and having been favored to beat Vargas, that he wasn't in his, "prime?"

 

Campas was alright, but seriously, Vargas didn't do anything Trinidad or Lopez didn't do before him or that Carr, et al wouldn't do aftewards.

Raul Marquez wasn't exactly a great champion to win the title from...and Mullings had already busted him up just a few months prior.

 

ok. but let's not lose sight of the point i was making which was that prior to fighting Trinidad, Vargas showed every ability to deal with big punchers.

 

the bolded part is dead-on. Marquez had no business fighting that soon after the Mullings fight, Campas walked into the one situation that would allow him to lay claim as an alphabet champ.

And to Double L - Campas wasn't favored in that fight. The night was tailor-made for Vargas to pick up a title, and though I don't know the odds off-hand, I do know that Vargas was favored/expected to win.

 

well, one thing's for sure, Lampley picked Campas to win. ::

 

really? That's surprising, as he (and HBO, for that matter) has long been in love with 'Nando. He was desperately pushing the "Vargas is the next superstar" angle going into the Tito fight, and Foreman flat out picked Vargas to win

 

yeah it is surprising. maybe it was his angle for over-stating the significance of the win once it happened, but if you find an old KO magazine, in which the match-up is analyzed by various press people, you'll find that he picked Campas based on the improvements he claims that his trainer at the time had made (he'd been working with that famous cut-man at that point, the guy who was for a time both Corrales' and PBF's cut-man - I forget his name - the guy Steward always says is the best cut-man in the game).

 

Campas was shit.......end of story, Vargas was shit and so is John Duddy, therefore.

 

I agree for the most part. I wouldn't necessarily agree that Winky is better than all of those other fighters, but you make a good point about Vargas not dealing well with punchers. He is easily drawn into a brawl, and gets away from boxing.

I think as a whole (and maybe the point your trying to really make ??) Vargas is a very good boxer, probably underated in this regard. Against skilled boxers Vargas could compete and win, his dismantling of Quartey was incredible. His problem is that he couldn't relay his boxing skills to effectively deal with punchers the same way that guys like Winky himself could. And he is chinny as fuck...

 

Every fighter has a prime.

I've never thought of "prime" as being related to the quality level of a fighter.

Prime is simply - the timespan at which a fighter is at his best.

Peace.

 

^^^Ok. So was Campas a "prime" fighter when he fought Vargas??.. And if he was, was Fernando's ability to take his punch an indication that he would have been able to take Tito's??..

I ask this to Double L who probably picked Vargas to beat Trinidad and then blamed the handwraps as the reason Vargas not only lost, but seemingly went down hill afterwards.

 

Just whom did Yory Boy beat for that title??... Oh thats right!!.. None other than the all time great himself Raul Marquez...

What a letdown. I would have thought Campas would have beaten a better fighter to be called a champion.

 

i picked tito.

and i'm not saying tito's ability to ko vargas is proof in anyway of foul play. but vargas' rapid demise following that fight (knocked down by rivera and hurt by shibata), not to mention having lost his legs from a jab of tito's does lend some credence to the theory first put forth by hopkins. and keeping in mind that ever since the hopkins fight tito hasn't been anything close to the puncher he had been.

 

So why isn't Winky better than those fighters :dunno: I can see people not agreeing with Oscar, but the others?

 

Well, according to this thread you shouldn't look at their head-to-head match-ups for the answer. ::

 

Vargas contributed to his own demise. Lets not forget that Vargas wasn't exactly the most "disciplined" guy when it came to getting in shape for a fight. Vargas would often enter training camps about 40 pounds over weight and sweating all that weight off does take a toll on the body especially in a fighter's ability to take a punch.

As far as losing his legs from a "jab" of Tito, take into consideration that it was in the 2nd round of that fight and surely Vargas could not have had his legs all the way back yet from the two knockdowns from left hooks by Tito.

That Tito wasn't the puncher at 160 that he was at the lower weights I agree on. But I don't believe it was because of his "wraps". If we want to look at the Joppy fight, I don't know about anyone else but Joppy really made it easy for himself to get KTFO because he fought Tito with his hands by his side and his chin in the air.

Hopkins did get hit by Tito flush a few times but Hopkins was also a very big middleweight and lets not forget that Antwun Echols, a huge puncher in his own right couldn't put Hopkins out either.

Cherifi was Tito's next fight and though he's a bum, Tito's KO of him did not show me a SIGNIFICANT diminish in power.

Mayorga took many flush shots but he has a hard head. Oscar's SPEED is what made him take Mayorga out easier, being that Mayorga couldn't see Oscar's punches coming, but he could see Tito's, so he was able to brace himself more for the shots.


Overall, I think Tito not being the puncher he was at the lower weights had more to do with him fighting these bigger guys who could take his punch as opposed to when he was at 147 and 154. Remember he was a big welterweight similar to Kermit Cintron in size(Though Tito had much more talent and better skills).

 

I never said he was "huge", but he still can bang pretty well with both hands.