Does anyone stand a chance against a "prime" RJJ? Or was he invincible?

Griffen hurt DM.

 

dude, none of those guys listed executed a fight plan anywhere close to the one Johnson did. that's why i'm laughing. your examples prove nothing - not even a hint of proof - that RJJ would've done to Johnson in his prime what he managed to do to the likes of Toney, Hill and Brannon. that's why i'm laughing.

the question isn't whether or not a fighter like Johnson, with his gameplan, existed as of RJJ's prime - it's whether or not RJJ could've dealt easily with one if he did.

and Hopkins? he didn't apply any pressure when he faced RJJ. he stayed back and tried to counter and frankly fought like Telesco with a little better timing and defense. but comparable to Johnson? not in the slightest.

 

Comparing Roy @ 175 in his late thirties after a couple months from a KO, to his prime @ 168, do I need to elaborate any further at Johnsons' "gameplan" :: If Roy fought Johnson like he was capable in his prime, he would have changed his gameplan.

So Roy and Hopkins stayed in the middle of the ring huh? Hopkins fought like Telesco :doh:

You see what I mean? Reserve those smilies for yourself :nono:

 

Nigel Benn would have fucked him up, but RJJr. ran like a scared girl.

 

i don't know if it's me, or you, or the combination of the two, but i'm having a hard time communicating with you. from my viewpoint, it would seem you don't understand the argument i'm making one iota.

are you saying that against a 168 pound prime RJJ (the invincible one) that nobody could've executed the game-plan that Johnson did in their fight at 175? if so, i disagree. like i said, such a gameplan (the one Johnson executed) requires guts, skill, durability and endurance. i don't think it's reasonable to suggest that nobody at 168 in the mid-nineties could've possibly possessed those attributes. do you?

and you can make fun of my comparing hopkins to telesco - it is a bit silly considering that even a majorly green hopkins was a far superior fighter to telesco - but the point is still valid which is that hopkins was entirely intimidated by RJJ's speed and as a result applied little in the way of pressure (see Hopkins/Taylor for a repeat performance).

 

I am saying no one could execute the same game plan and expect the SAME results given Roy was not the same fighter :dunno:

I see your point is valid when argueing your point, but not valid when someone uses another fighter that is against your argument :dunno:

 

Pointing to the Johnson fight is stupid given this thread's question. I can think of a bunch of fighters with various styles that would've given Roy fits on that particular night.


He was a dead man walking....zero energy, little resiliance and no legs whatsoever.

 

With respect to the question, no one had Roy's aura.....yes Tyson was a monster for awhile but Jones performed at the highest level for 14 years....fricken unbelievable.

 

Benn himself said that he asked for too much money and was glad he didn't fight Roy. Of course, he said this about 10 or so years ago, so you were probably learning Grade 5. Roy never ran from Benn. Slap yourself for saying something this stupid. ::

While Benn was busy getting a loss and a draw with Chris Eubank, Roy was fighting Hopkins, Toney, and Thomas Tate, a much better fighter than people realized but one who Roy made look like shit. :dunno:

 

Toney was the best of the crop at 168. He was better than Eubank and better than Benn. In fact, he called both of them out in an interview where he said that one guy's mama had 4 titties and the other guy's mama looked like Nessie - The Loch Ness Monster. Maybe you don't remember Don King's middleweight tournament? ::

 

this is what irks me - the impression so many have that all Johnson did was storm forward throwing punches. he didn't. he did a lot of subtle things in that fight. he never crowded himself, yet he stayed close, he "bounced" on his feet side to side and moved his head even as he stood inches from RJJ, kept his punches short, went to the body with great discipline, and that's not to mention the toughness he showed in not relenting even in the face of some stinging counters and getting hit with some shots he didn't see.

people act like he won that fight with no particular plan. and the idea that RJJ was a dead man walking? only to go on and beat anthony thompson? an undefeated olympian who'd won a 168 tournament?

it's bull-shit.

Johnson employed a strategy that no fighter had ever before employed against RJJ and it worked - not only did he knock RJJ ouit, but he won round after round. this distinguishes it from Tarver's initial win over RJJ - and his first fight with RJJ in which he lost at least half the rounds.

i'm not saying Johnson beats a prime RJJ with that same strategy - but what I am saying is that past his prime or not, RJJ's inability to cope with Johnson's style suggests that even in his prime, RJJ would've had his hands full against such an opponent.

and this supposedly dead man walking, i'll also point out, still has blazing quick hands and combos, and obviously really good punching power. so the things that have diminished for RJJ wouldn't necessarily have been key anyways in combating a strategy like Johnson's. maybe he doesn't get knocked out. and maybe he gets off more. but he's still got a guy inches away, not crowding himself, throwing short punches high and low, moving his head, and stepping side to side. that will and always would've trouble RJJ big time. if RJJ couldn't initimidate youwith his speed, it becomes a battle of wills. not so sure he would've won all such battles. in fact, my bet would've been he would not.

 

Prince Charles Williams found him to be a pretty decent fighter. Tough enough to get them both stopped in a hellacious battle.

 

Why should Toney have had to prove he was the best of the crop, he has your endorsement.

And glad you take Toney's drivel as gospel. You're probably the only one left.

 

Your boy was the one running.

 

wtf does this have to do with any of the points i'm making? styles make fights. not who HBO tells you is a better fighter.

 

Who was better than Toney at 168 until Jones came along? Seriously. If you can't look at his resumé and realize it is as good as anybody's around that weight over the last 20 years, then I don't know what to say to you.

As for taking Toney's "drivel" as gospel, are you on crack? Toney was a showman, but he was willing to fight anybody and everybody.

 

Coming off the brutal KO loss to Tarver just 4 Months earlier Roy was a dead man walking that night. In his prime he would have pot shotted Johnson from centre ring and showed up how slow Johnson is. Look how Tarver used speed and angles to beat Johnson in the rematch. Your hate really leaves you blinded.

 

again - complete disregard for the reality that styles make fights. i know it's a cliche. but with posts like this looming about, i see that it can't be repeated too many times.

 

Julian Jackson out-boxed Tate. It was impressive though that RJJ was able to stop him - Tate had a good chin for sure.

 

Montell Griffin. :dunno:

 

Yeah they make fights and Roys style ate up pressure fighters. He had trouble with counter punchers with good defence. Johnson isn't a counter puncher he has little defence and has average speed.

 

Toney was always full of shit and anyone with your mentality on the guy must have been going A Clockwork Orange with the HBO Barkley commentary.

Toney may have been the best at 168, but I doubt it. Eubank, Benn, Liles, Collins, Calz all may have been better.

Funny how he blames weight for his Jones loss and yet at 175 became a loss machine. And at 160, he was far from unbeatable. You have to play an imaginary game to make Toney so great at 168. I don't.

 

Sorry, DoubleL, but you think Hopkins fights like Telesco. You are not allowed to post in this topic any longer. ::

 

You've proven to be a regular ring historian in this thread.

Seriously, I wasn't aware they ever fought.

 

Did you see that fight? Tate's chin held up, but Jackson wasn't the type to outbox anyone.

 

not that you're obligated in any way to do so, or that i have any expectation that you would, but have you read any of my posts regarding the topic of pressure fighters?

in this very thread we've had people point to Sosa as evidence that RJJ eats up pressure fighters. do you think that's fair?

and besides that, do you think Johnson, especially the night of the RJJ fight, is nothing more than a pressure fighter? he beat RJJ with a lot more than pressure. that's my point.

and even if we concede that Johnson is nothing but a pressure fighter (which isn't true but for the sake of the argument let's say he is), your argument then implies that all pressure fighters are created equal. now we "know" this isn't true.

some of the best fighters in the world, some of the most dominant ones ever have been labelled as pressure fighters, and yet, as we all know, some of the worst fighters have also been labelled pressure fighters.

it's silly to say that a particular style, in and of itself, can beat RJJ. i never said that. what i did say is that a highly skilled application of pressure, with care taken in the areaa of head movement, punch selection, distance and side to side movement will give RJJ fits.

and as to your statement regarding counter punchers, i've never seen RJJ lose a battle of counters. counter punchers by nature will always make fights close and are rarely dominated. and few fighters don't struggle to shine against counter punchers (taylor/spinks anyone?). Taylor clearly won that fight, but he didn't dominate, didn't look good, and obviously had "trouble" with him.

 

So for one, you think Eubank, Benn, and Liles were better? You'd be in an extreme minority on that one. Calzaghe NOW perhaps, and Collins maybe although that would be debateable. Regarding comparable opposition, Collins lost to McCallum and Reggie Johnson, but Toney beat them. Collins MIGHT have been as good as Toney, but he didn't show it in head to head competition at 160 or 168.

 

Well, I guess the people at KO and Ring Magazine at that time were playing this imaginary game you speak of, dude. Good thing we have seasoned journalists like yourself keeping it real. ::

 

They did. TWICE. If you didn't know that they had a couple of good bouts back over 10 years ago, then you weren't watching back then. I was.:dunno:

 

It had everything to do with the points you were making.

You said "are you saying that against a 168 pound prime RJJ (the invincible one) that nobody could've executed the game-plan that Johnson did in their fight at 175? if so, i disagree. like i said, such a gameplan (the one Johnson executed) requires guts, skill, durability and endurance. i don't think it's reasonable to suggest that nobody at 168 in the mid-nineties could've possibly possessed those attributes. do you?"

In response I said that Toney was the cream of the crop. If you're having trouble understanding, then I will make it simpler for you: Toney was known as the most complete 168lber at that time. Out of anybody at that time, Toney had the best shot at executing a gameplan that required guts, skill, durability, and endurance. The second likeliest would have been Mike McCallum, but Toney and Jones were widely considered the best in and around middleweight/supermiddleweight.

That's why I referenced Don King's middleweight tourney. Those two, Jones and Toney, were the only two not in it and that is because they weren't going to stay under lock and key to Don King (who had long contracts which amounted to servitude at the time).

If you don't remember this stuff or you weren't watching at the time, then read a book or magazine from that era because it was referenced a number of times by people a lot more knowledgeable about boxing than either of us.

Back to the point, Toney was the likeliest to implement the gameplan you said had never been tried before. Jones boxed him silly. Jones literally toyed with Toney just before sending him flying across the ring, and then proceeding to win pretty much every round. There was NOBODY at 168 who could do that plan you mentioned any better than Toney.