Does anyone stand a chance against a "prime" RJJ? Or was he invincible?

Toney was a plodder, who was never much good on the front foot. If you actually believe he was 'the guy' who oculd have best implemented a plan of aggression and front foot pressure, I would have to believe you've either never seen James fight before...OR, you have him confused with a versatile fighter, adept at all forms of offense.

Toney was MADE for Jones. It was apparent before, during and after and his time @ 168 (where he beat up how many other top 168 pounders by the way?) was a farce. He made his bones @ 160 and that hangover carried on for the next 7 or so years, where he won ZERO important fights, until he beat Jirov.

Supremely talented on the backfoot and could see everything coming. But is easily one of the most overrated fighters in history. Guys like him, who are bigger than life and show all the natural ability, almost always are.

 

Toney's never fought a fight in his life with the style that Johnson employed against RJJ. That's what you're failing to recognize whether you want to believe it or not.

 

thank you. couldn't (didn't) say it better myself.

 

As much as I admired Roy as a fighter, Bobby Foster would have murdered him, and it wouldn't have taken him very long, either.

 

In Roys prime his toughest fights were with Griffen and Harding. Guess what they are counter punchers with good defence. No pressure fighter gave Roy problems they got straight up beatdown.

 

Toney had something like 10 wins from the time he beat Barkley until he lost to Jones. He beat Barkley in a good scrap against a then-dangerous puncher, and he dusted off respectable fringe contenders like Thornton, Glenn Thomas, Hembrick, undefeated Tim Littles (in a bout where he had a bad cut from a headbutt) who he BLASTED out in 4, and the lightheavyweight champ Prince Charles Williams who moved down in weight against the smaller Toney. Take Toney's name out of there, and those wins would look good on any contender's resumé back in the day. Heck, he fought around 10 guys in two years, and he wasn't an up-and-comer barnstorming against heavybags. All the guys he fought were top ten guys by the IBF at that time, so you tack that on someone else and it looks like good competition at a fast pace. You're definitely right about one thing though, Toney also quality wins over guys at middleweight as well.

 

You're completely missing my point Double...

One CANNOT draw inference on what Roy couldle or could not handle from that fight in Memphis.....he was a walking CORPSE against Glen and had no business being in the ring that particular night.

Some say he didn't train(apparently only 1 week due to Hurrican Ivan), some say he was still suffering from a concussion (actually you'll notice Roy blinking his eyes frequently after rd 5)....whatever the point was Roy stood flat foot from ROUND 1. He didn't want to be there and Glen knew it....that's why he stuck on him. Glen isn't a skilled fighter by any means.....the man has no counter punching repetoire......watch the fight and notice how he just covered up whenever Roy threw no matter how sporadic it was.....that characterstic would be suicide against a prime Roy who could & would continually keep Glen on the defensive with punches from all angles (as he often did during his prime)....hell even if Roy had some legs that night he would've danced around Glen's plodding. Remember this is the same Johnson who'd been fighting tooth and nail with the rather ordinary Clinton Woods....and no it's not a difference of styles but rather the fact that Clinton actually offered resistance. Point is it was easy to look good against Roy that night because he stunk.

This reminds of when Kevin Mchale was asked about comparing the brash Chuck Person to Larry Bird (who dueled in the early ninetes playoffs) to which he replied: "I see Chuck's prime and saw Larry's prime and Chuck better thank god he didn't meet Larry in his prime because he really would've gotten his ass kicked."

 

I'm aware, but thanks for the history lesson.

 

Are you retarded? I said he was the likeliest to employ that style against Roy back at that time. But then again, just to prove you wrong, if you think that Toney didn't employ guts, durability, endurance, and pressure against Prince Charles Williams, then you're definitely smoking something.

Prince Charles held the lightheavy title for 5 years, then lost in Germany to Henry Maske, and then came back with three straight knockouts just before moving down to face Toney, the consensus supermiddleweight champ at that time.

Williams was a dangerous fighter, and Toney applied great pressure, endurance, and guts while methodically chopping down Williams in a 12th round KO. THAT is one of the main reasons why some picked Toney to beat Jones in Toney's next fight. He looked so damn impressive in his previous fight that many believed he would again persevere. You're failing to recognize just about everything going on at that time.

 

Great shout.

It's sad, because i really think Roy could've put this hypothetical question beyond doubt during his career.

 

My pleasure. ::

 

:: All Toney did vs. THAT weight drained version of Williams, was lay on the ropes for most of the fight and counterpunch, inside with the weak PCW.

It was a similar fight to his contest with Jirov. It featuered lots of action, but Toney was hardly on the front foot. He sat and waited, like he almost always did.

 

They leaned on each other and dug away at each other's body for the majority of that fight. In Toney's own words, he "took those old legs out from underneath Williams". Williams himself said he made 168 easy and that he did so by not drinking pop. He used to drink 8-10 cans of pop a day, and he quit drinking it while he trained for that fight. I guess it's true: Coke Adds Life. ::

Yeah, Prince Charles was weak. That's why he held his belt for five years and beat Czyz twice, by being weak. I guess all those wins were weak too. :: ::

 

Physically weak, captain emoticon. :bears: :cheer: :blobbox: :kick: opcorn:

 

Captain Emoticon says: 14 of Williams' last 16 fights before facing Toney, Williams won by knockout. The only thing weak here is your thought process. ::

 

yeh

invincible

like the first Griffin fight showed :notallthere:

 

Benn would have sent him home ina BODY BAG.

But your little hero ran like a little bitch.

And Benn did not say that 10 years ago, he said it this year. Benn has become a tree hugger lately, so he is saying stupid things.

 

Double L and Cuban Hawk are still talking about Roy?:laughing:

 

This part is right- Benn was apparently offered 10 million bucks to fight RJJ after he near KILLED McClellan and he said no- he wanted 25 million.

The rest of this post is fucking stupid.

McClellan, possibly the hardest hitting 160lber ever, could not KO Benn, let alone put him in a body bag. How come RJJ does then?

RJJ was the boy, no doubt, at 168 in the early-mid 90's, but to say that Benn ran like a bitch is also BS. Who, except RJJ, did he run from?

Put it this way. Is there anyone at 160/168 NOW that Benn wouldn't fight? Joe Calzaghe? Kelly Pavlik? Abraham? Kessler?

RJJ at that time was EXCEPTIONAL. No shame at all in not fighting him, IMO. Not unless the rewards, financially, were very, VERY juicy.

To call the man who fought that 'to the death' battle with G-Man 'a little bitch' just doesn't wash IMO. Eubank? Maybe. Watson? Too green (then crippled).

But the Benn of THAT fight gives any 168lber EVER, RJJ included, the night of their life...

MTF

 

Benn himself said in a RING magazine that he negotiated to fight Roy but he had no intention to because "he didn't want to end up like Gerald".

 

I am not going to try to deny that Benn ducked RJJ- he did and he said so himself.

This does not. however, mean that he would have went home in a body bag (the Benn from the McClellan fight goes home in a body bag?!?) and nor does it make him 'a little bitch'.

Had he just won the McClellan fight, IMO Benn would have taken the RJJ bout. But anyone who knows anything will know that Benn was shot the second they took Gerald away in an ambulance. all the fight was drained from him...

 

I don't think Benn would have been crippled. None of Roy's opponents have been. I do think Roy would have caused a referee's stoppage though, about round 8.

 

Hard to tell.

The normal Benn (i.e. not the one who fought G-man), would have lost in 6 rounds to RJJ at 168 in 1993/94. Benn would have been loading up the bombs, but missing the whole time, and getting hit all night as he came looking for RJJ.

The Benn of the G-Man fight ends up much the same way, but he is un-knockoutable and last the 12 to lose a lopsided decision after given RJJ more clips than anyone else managed, but still no-where near enough.

For the record, 1993/94 RJJ is the ONLY 168lb-er who even lasts the 12 with the Benn who fought G-Man, IMO. The Benn of that night was a man possessed by demons, and was impossible to keep down. That I say RJJ beats him with ease shows the high regard I hold that version of Jones in...

MTF

 

Roy would've eventually boxed Nigel's ears off (perhaps literally), but I was always curious to see how Roy would've contended with his roughhousing, particularly as the fight went on. Roy learned to deal with most styles, but not sure I've seen Roy in the fight against someone like Nigel (not the caliber, but his style and all of the intangibles).

A Roy-Eubank fight never interested me. I thought it'd be one-sided regardless (big difference between MW Eubank and the SMW/post-Watson II version), but also had the chance to be a momumental stinker due to Eubank's posing and mocking, and Roy's liekly willingness to allow nothing to happen as a result.

 

110% correct, and oft overlooked

Eubank up to Watson II was a deadly KO puncher., who let the shots go naturally and fluently whenever possible.. But the Watson tragedy affected him terribly and he turned to posing and preening and carrying guys for 12 rounds wherever and whenever possible (even against Been in their second fight, whom he hated, he did not have the ferocity of the first)

MTF

 

:doh:

Read my post AGAIN. please.

 

Sure, I just did

You said:

1. Benn ran from RJJ (agreed)

2. In doing so, Benn was 'a little bitch'

3. Had Benn not been 'a little bitch', he would have been KILLED (Body bag) by RJJ

4. Benn now hugs trees and says silly things

NOW, if you want me to now take your original post as sarcasm whilst relying on point 4, that's fine ::

But I don't think anyone else would have interpreted it that way either bud...

MTF

 

:doh:

You HAVE TO BE FUCKING JOKING ME right now, right? :dunno:

I said that RJJ ran from Benn, and that RJJ was a little bitch, and that NIGEL BENN WOULD HAVE SENT RJJ home in a body bag.

Put down the Newcastle Ale, go to bed, and then read my post again tomorow.

 

Of course I am...:laughing:

God, so tetchy. A bloke can't even get hammered nowadays,,, ::