Awesome article from maxboxing: By John Scully Few know the ins and out of boxing as intimately as “the Iceman†John Scully, a U.S. amateur standout in the ‘80s who became a world-ranked professional fighter in ‘90s and now makes his living as a top-notch pro and amateur trainer. Scully, who currently trains 122-pound contender Mike Oliver, has followed amateur boxing closely since his youth (even before he became a nationally rated participant) and he hasn’t lost any of his passion for the U.S. amateur scene, which has spawned some of the biggest names in the sport over the past 30 years. If you want to know the amateur past of the top contenders and champions of this era – the future standouts they beat and the boxers, particularly those you never heard of, who beat them back in the day – “the Iceman†is the guy to ask. Scully has been working on an autobiography called “The Iceman Diaries†for a few years. One chapter he decided to cut during the editing process was a compilation of the many amateur scene stories that he had heard and witnessed over the decades. However, just because the chapter won’t be in his book doesn’t mean hardcore fans worldwide shouldn’t enjoy it. Here, presented exclusively on MaxBoxing.com in a weekly multi-part series we’re calling “Who Beat Whoâ€, are Scully’s tales from the amateurs. [Editor’s note: anyone interested in contacting Mr. Scully, or making direct comments about any of these fights (he was there for quite a few of them), may email him at IcemanDiaries@aol.com or ICEJOHNSCULLY@aol.com.] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- One aspect of boxing that I have always been very intrigued by is the results of amateur fights involving boxers that went on to become champions and contenders. The national amateur tournaments are full of potential champions and if you ever get a chance to go check one out then by all means go and do so because you will be seeing the future stars of boxing. I have been to many of these tournaments as both a boxer and as a coach and I witnessed dozens of future stars and thousands of interesting results. For example, I saw Roy Jones, Jr. when he was 19 years old, Shane Mosley and Mark “Too Sharp†Johnson when they were 16, and Bones Adams when he was just 13. I saw Lawrence Clay-Bey very early in his amateur career in local tournaments the Connecticut area (where I grew up) and I was present at the same Golden Gloves tournament back in 1983 (as a spectator) that featured a 201-pound 16 year old named Michael "The Tank" Tyson. There are many excellent amateur boxers who didn't pan out for one reason or another as professionals. Because of that, they don't get the respect I feel they deserve. Many of them were tremendous amateur boxers who were looked at in the same light (at the time) as the guys who went on to become superstars in the game. In other words, there were times when future stars like Riddick Bowe, Roy Jones and Shane Mosley were not the top guys in their respective weight class and the guys who were actually rated above them back then are guys you likely wouldn't recognize if they walked by you today on your own street. A perfect example of what I am talking about is reflected in the professional record of former undisputed middleweight champion Bernard Hopkins. You all know the big names he fought, stars like Roy Jones, Antonio Tarver, Oscar De La Hoya and Jermain Taylor, who were all great former amateurs in their day; but those of us who know the deal are also impressed with his impressive wins over former top flight amateurs Dennis Milton, Adam Garland and Roy Richie. Garland in particular was an elite U.S. amateur back in the early 1980s who many thought had the power and style to become a real force as a professional, but for whatever one of the million reasons that some guys don't pan out to full potential, he didn't make it to the heights that peers of his (at 165 pounds) like Virgil Hill and Michael Nunn did. And for the record, Hopkins also scored professional victories over several other former top-class U.S. amateurs including Joe Lipsey, Percy Harris, and Willie Kemp. It is also amazing and interesting to me that you can be at what might appear to be an average run of the mill tournament somewhere and you will have no idea who the guys on the show may or may not turn out to be in the future. Like the night of February 16, 1983 at the New England Golden Gloves tournament in Lowell, Massachusetts, for example, when bout number eight that night saw "Irish" Mickey Ward and Joey Gamache match up in a 132-pound bout, while bout number 14 saw John Wilkinson defeat future IBF world title challenger Kevin Daigle, and bout number 21 featured a fierce 16-year old heavyweight by the name of Tyson. So here we go with just some of the most interesting amateur fights from days gone by that I remember either seeing live or reading about: Future world light heavyweight champion and IBF heavyweight champ Michael Spinks lost a decision to future well known trainer Tommy Brooks in the 1975 National AAU finals at 165 pounds. In the finals of the 1976 National Golden Gloves (I have it on video tape), at 132 pounds, future great Aaron "The Hawk" Pryor won a decision over another future legend in Tommy "Hit Man" Hearns (back when amateur boxers didn't wear head gear). Later on, in the qualifying tournament for the 1976 Olympics, Pryor defeated future WBA lightweight champion Hilmer Kenty before losing a decision to Howard Davis Jr. (in what was the second time that Howard defeated Aaron as an amateur). Pryor also scored a 1976 decision over future IBF 140-pound world champion Gary Hinton. Hearns went on to beat future title challengers Bobby Joe Young (twice) and Ronnie Shields in 1977. The 1991 world amateur championship final saw future professional world champions Vernon Forrest and Kostya Tzyu match up at 139 pounds with Kostya landing more than a few solid and very accurate straight right hands on his way to capturing a solid decision over his much taller opponent. Also in 1991, Vernon won the U.S. Championships with consecutive victories over Terron Millet, Ross Thompson, Lamar Murphy and Stevie Johnston. Vernon then turned around and had another spectacular week at the 1992 U.S. Olympic Trials where he defeated future world title challenger Robert "Push Up" Frazier, and a pair of future world champions in "Sugar" Shane Mosley and Stevie Johnston on his way to the championship at 139 pounds. Vernon also once scored an amateur decision over future IBF welterweight champion Michael Piccorillo. People know Chris Byrd as a former IBF heavyweight champion and some even remember him back when he was a 165-pound amateur in the 1992 Olympics. But I remember Chris way back when he was a 139-pound amateur who twice lost to Todd Foster in 1988. Once, in the finals of the U.S. Championships and again in the U.S. Olympic Trials a few months later, Chris won a final-round decision over future IBF junior middleweight champion Paul Vaden in that same tournament one year later (the 1989 USA/ABF championships) in the 156 pound class. In what may be Byrd's most interesting amateur result, he was once stopped (on an RSC) at 165 pounds by another future champ in Joe Calzaghe in a USA-Italy meet in December of 1992. Future WBA middleweight champ William Joppy lost by decision to Chris Byrd at the 1992 U.S. Olympic Trials at 165 pounds. Joppy also fought, and defeated future world title challenger Antwun Echols in the amateurs. At the 1992 Eastern U.S. Olympic Trials Joppy scored a quarterfinal round decision over future cruiserweight contender Ravea Springs on his way to the gold medal at that tournament. In the 156-pound final of those same 1992 Olympic Trials Raul Marquez scored a wide decision over future contender Echols, a semi-final win that week over future WBO middleweight champ Lonnie Bradley and a quarterfinal stoppage over future contender (and two-time Hopkins challenger) Robert Allen. Another quarterfinal bout in the 156-pound class that week saw Bradley score a decision over future WBC 154-pound champion Keith Mullings. Future heavyweight contenders David Izon (then known as David Izonreti) and David Tua met up in the 1992 Olympic semi-finals in the 201 pound division where Izon captured a decision victory. Roy Jones scored decisions over future professional title holders and contenders such as Derrick "Poppy Too Sweet" Rolon, NABF middleweight champ Fabian Williams, WBO junior middleweight champ Verno Phillips, title challenger Thomas Tate, Ray McElroy, WBC 168-pound champion Richie Woodhall of England (in the ‘88 Olympics) and WBA 168-pound champ Frank Liles (twice). “RJ†also lost decisions to Liles and WBC middleweight champ Gerald McClellan.
McClellan beat Tim Littles in the finals of the 1987 U.S. national championships and defeated Jones in the 1988 National Golden Gloves while losing (in other tournaments) to Thomas Tate, Liles and, more than once, to McElroy. Littles lost three times to Liles (as pros they split two bouts) while defeating future WBO light heavyweight champ and world heavyweight champ Michael Moorer (twice) and Antoine Byrd once at the 1985 Eastern Trials. Littles also defeated future world title challenger Dan Schommer at a mid 80's national tournament (Schommer himself had defeated the very formidable Bomani Parker in an earlier amateur event). It's kind of funny to think Liles defeated three powerhouses at 156 like Roy Jones, Tim Littles and Gerald McCllelan, while in 1987, at 147 pounds, he was out-pointed pretty convincingly by the light punching welterweight Kenny Gould. U.S. Championships results from “The Amateur Boxerâ€, May 1987: “147 pounds: Frank Liles said after his match with Gould, ‘I just had an off day. I felt really sluggish.’ Well, Frank, even a gadfly might feel sluggish around Kenneth. “156 pounds: Timothy Littles of Flint is a pretty boxer but a round and a half of Gerald McClellan's straight on, no nonsense hard punching took away his cuteness and his legs. Littles impressed with his boxing skills but he eventually wilted against McClellan's murderous punching.†I was there for some of those fights including Jones’s fights with Liles, McElroy, McClellan and Williams. The Jones-McClellan fight was a back and forth affair that saw ‘RJ’ backed to the ropes often but he constantly fought off the ropes with great flurries of combinations. Good fight. And when Roy beat Fabian Williams I remember that Roy hit Fabian with a good shot that knocked him down and while Fabian was receiving the mandatory eight-count I was standing next to Hartford trainer Johnny Duke who told me, “If the kid (Jones) is a smart fighter then he'll come right out and go to the body right away.†Sure enough, once the action resumed Roy came right out and went right to the body with a left hand. Duke wisely explained to me afterwards that when a boxer is hurt or stunned his first reaction will be to cover his head so the guy attacking him should plan for that and go for his usually unprotected body right away. Good advice that I still use with my own boxers to this day. Future IBF cruiserweight champion Al "Ice" Cole beat Michael Moorer once at 165 pounds and won one of three bouts with 1988 Olympic gold medalist Andrew Maynard at 178 pounds. Cole also beat Bomani Parker in the 1988 Olympic Trials at 178 pounds but lost in earlier competitions to the spectacular amateur trio of 165 pound stars Darin Allen, William Guthrie (he actually defeated Guthrie once in three or four tries) and Anthony Hembrick. Also at 165 pounds, Cole defeated future WBO title challenger (to Chris Eubanks) Dan Schommer and future WBO 175 pound champion Leonzer Barber. In a fight that most true boxing fans are aware of, Lennox Lewis won his 1988 Olympic Gold Medal with a championship night stoppage victory over fellow future heavyweight champion Riddick "Big Daddy" Bowe in Seoul, South Korea. In a bout that they might not be aware of, 1984 Olympic gold medalist Tyrell Biggs defeated Lennox on the way to the title at the Los Angeles games that year Future IBF 140-pound world champion "Cool" Vince Phillips scored at least two decision victories in 1985 over future (1988) U.S. Olympian Todd Foster. Canada's future NABF 175-pound champion Egerton Marcus, who made the 1988 Canadian Olympic team by defeating Otis Grant, scored a decision at over future IBF 168 pound champion Sven Ottke the Seoul Games. Future heavyweight champ Moorer had those fights at 156 and 165 pounds against Cole and Littles and he also won a decision over future contender Thomas Tate at 156 and split two bouts at 165 with Ottke. When they were kids, Michael fought Gerald McClellan, maybe at 125 pounds, with Gerald coming away with a decision victory over the future heavyweight champ. Ottke lost a decision to Henry Maske in a 1987 amateur tournament in East Germany and was stopped by Maske in the first round of another fight that same year. In 1994, Ottke fought to a rare draw in amateur boxing with Antonio Tarver. In a 1992 USA-Germany duel meet the German scored a decision over Chris Byrd at 165 pounds. Maske, meanwhile, defeated future professional foe Graciano Roccigianni in a 1981 German amateur bout. Maske also defeated Egerton Marcus in the 1888 Olympic gold medal match and later on, as professionals, Henry would defeat both of them on 12-round decisions. "Sugar" Shane Mosley won a decision over Stevie Johnston at the 1989 U.S. Championships. Shane also won a decision over Oscar De La Hoya when they were 12 or 13 years old. But you probably knew that. Look for part two of ‘Who Beat Who: Tales From the Amateurs’ next week on MaxBoxing.com.
It's from Maxboxing. Here's part II: In the second part of former standout boxer and current world-class trainer John Scully’s tales from the amateurs, “the Iceman†focuses on the unsung heroes of the unpaid ranks – those unknown amateur boxers who never turned pro (or never made names for themselves in the paid ranks) but who beat some of the best known and accomplished professional fighters of the past 60 years. Read on and enjoy! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am not sure who Dwight Flores of Roswell, New Mexico is but I wonder if he even knows that he defeated Vinny Pazienza in the 132-pound class at the 1981 National Golden Gloves tournament? I am not familiar with a kid named Terry Lockette of Miami but I wonder if he is aware that in the finals of the Ohio State Fair tournament in 1987 he won a decision over future 1996 Olympic gold medalist and WBA super welterweight champion David Reid. Lockette defeated Reid on championship night in the 112-pound intermediate JO division. I am familiar, however, with Jose "Killer" DeJesus but you might not be. He was a lifelong amateur from Massachusetts who never turned pro because of a nagging back injury that prematurely ended his boxing career. Several years after I defeated him by a 3-0 unanimous decision in the Golden Gloves he scored a second-round stoppage over future 154-pound titlist Travis Sims (and then retired in the very same tournament). Brooklyn’s 1984 Olympic gold medal winner Mark Breland of racked up an amazing amateur record of 110 wins against just one single defeat that eventually made St. Louis' Darryl Anthony, who scored a decision over the future two-time world welterweight champion in 1981, one of the most important footnotes in amateur boxing history. One particular unsung boxer who most have never heard about and will never hear about – or see him fight again – is Cincinnati's Jeshawn Johnson, a 156 pounder who advanced all the way to the semi-finals of the 2002 National Golden Gloves tournament in Denver where he lost to eventual champion Jesse Briseno of Michigan. On the way to that semifinal finish, Johnson scored an electrifying decision over future hot prospect Andre Berto, scoring two particularly wicked knockdowns along the way (I was there live to see both of them). Truth be told, if my memory serves me correctly, Berto was thisclose to a stoppage loss in that fight and deserves credit for even getting up from the punches he took that night to last the distance with Johnson. [Author’s Note: The reason I say that fans will never see him fight again is that Jeshawn was shot and killed by a group of cowards (beat him down before a particular coward named Lionel Grimes, 18, shot him in the back while he lay on the ground) just nine months after the decision over Berto.] Henry Matos of Springfield, Massachusetts was a pretty good New England-area amateur back in the early and mid-1980s whose career highlight came at the 1983 New England Golden Gloves Tournament of Champions in Lowell when he won a finals night decision at 132-pounds over Micky Ward (one night after Ward had defeated future two-time world champion Joey Gamache). Regarding the Ward-Gamache fight, the Lowell Sun reported it like this: “At 132 [pounds] Micky Ward of Lowell and Joey Gamache of Vermont engaged in about as even a fight as you're going to see. Neither boxer had anything resembling a clear edge in the bloody brawl but Ward's aggressiveness in the third round probably won him the decision.†I am not sure who Solomon Lopez of California is but I wonder if he realizes that the guy he beat at the 1978 National AAU tournament was future WBC/WBA welterweight champion Marlon Starling? I never met Ernie Bennett, a former 201-pound amateur from just 90 minutes away from where I live (Connecticut) in Rhode Island, and I am not familiar with his accomplishments as an amateur boxer, but I would be willing to bet the highlight of his career came back in early 1982 when he scored a decision over future undisputed heavyweight champion Mike Tyson (just a hunch). Many knowledgeable boxing fans that are good with trivia know the name of Clinton Mitchell as the guy that defeated Bernard Hopkins in the future undisputed middleweight champ's pro debut back in 1988. What most do not know is that many of us were familiar with Clinton way before that when he was one of the top amateur light heavies in the country. As a matter of fact, in 1986, he went to the finals of the U.S. Olympic Festival in Houston where he lost a decision to eventual Olympic champion Andrew Maynard. Chicago heavyweight Al Evans was clearly decisioned in 1984 by Tyrell Biggs and stopped in 1983 by Henry Tillman in amateur bouts. Those two facts make it even more surprising that, in 1982, Evans scored a stoppage (TKO) victory over... Mike Tyson. You may not be very familiar with Maryland's Leslie Johnson but I am because before he put together a 21-3 pro record he was a pretty solid 156-pound amateur who I first met in North Carolina in 1988 at the Eastern Olympic trials where he defeated Steve Manfredo (Pete's uncle). Johnson's amateur career dated back to well before I met him, though, and one of his most notable victories came at the 1980 Ohio State Fair where as an 11 year old 80 pounder he scored a decision over Chicago's 10 year old Montell Griffin Rudy Cisneros was a 147 pounder boxing out of Marquette's Northern Michigan University (before landing a spot on "The Contender: Season 2") who scored a stoppage victory over the then-inexperienced future IBF welterweight champion Kermit "Killer" Cintron at the 2000 Eastern U.S. Olympic Trials tournament. Rudy also earned a decision victory that same year in a USA-Ireland dual meet over another future pro middleweight prospect John Duddy In the 1980s New York City amateur Lionel Odum was a young phenom who never really excelled as a professional but as an amateur he defeated the likes of Junior Jones, Shane Mosley and Kevin Kelley. I don't know anything about Germany’s Andy Liebling other than that he scored a 1987 decision at 156 pounds over future superstar Roy Jones Jr. at the junior world championships. Back in the mid 1990s there was an amateur boxing show held in Manchester, Connecticut that saw one of the junior Olympic bouts on the card produce a result that didn't mean very much at the time but now, maybe 10 full years later, Hartford's Jose Sierra (a kid that never even advanced to the open class as an amateur) can look back with pride and tell his friends (if any of them would even believe him) about the night he stopped future WBC 175-pound world champion "Bad" Chad Dawson (Dawson, to his credit, came back at a later date and defeated Sierra in a return match).
Kwak Kwi-Keun of South Korea probably never turned professional but he can always brag to his friends about the time in 1987 that he scored a first-round stoppage over future heavyweight champion Michael Moorer at 165 pounds. Kwi-Keun, while unknown to American amateur fans, was a top level amateur middleweight back when he beat Michael. Roberto "Chocolate" Perez, however, was an unknown amateur outside of my area when as the New England champion he defeated then no. 1 ranked Moorer (representing Pennsylvania) in a 156-pound fight at the 1986 National Golden Gloves tournament in Iowa. (Perez moved up to the 165-pound division the following year where I beat him via decision in the “Fight of the Year" at the 1987 Western Massachusetts Golden Gloves tournament.) Terry Christianson of Omaha, Nebraska was a highly decorated amateur boxer who reportedly had over 300 amateur fights and was an accomplished title holder at weights from 139 to 165 pounds over the course of his career. In 1980 he lost to future world champion Johnny Bumphus at the nationals but rebounded several years later to score a 156-pound decision over another future world champion, Gerald McClellan, at the 1986 National Golden Gloves. At the 1988 National Golden Gloves Christianson fought Yours Truly at 165 pounds on opening day in Omaha and I came away with a unanimous decision to score one of the biggest win of my amateur boxing career. I wonder if a kid named Brian Shaw out of Mississippi knows that he defeated future world champions Glen Johnson and William Joppy just a couple of days apart on his way to a silver medal in the 165-pound class at the 1992 National Golden Gloves? Hartford bantamweight Hector Rosario had just one fight as a professional, losing to my stablemate Angel Gonzalez on the undercard of my 1989 fight with John Wilkinson at the Hartford Civic Center. As a longtime amateur, though, Hector was an accomplished New England kid who scored, among many other victories, a 1984 decision over future European Flyweight champion Luiggi Camputaro in the finals of the Western Massachusetts Golden Gloves tournament and a 1987 decision in the semifinals of the New England Golden Gloves tournament over future top ten junior welterweight "Sucra" Ray Olivera. One of Rhode Island's top amateurs, Eric "The Energizer" Fagan, won many titles in his long career and probably defeated over one hundred people along the way but none of his wins can compare to his being the first boxer EVER to defeat Hawaii's star Brian Viloria at the 1997 National Junior Olympic tournament in Marquette, Michigan. Fagan, one of New England's most decorated amateur boxers in recent times, also scored Junior Olympic victories over future WBC light heavyweight champion Chad Dawson and future 122-pound contender Mike-Mike Oliver. I am willing to bet that most of you have not heard of a late 1980s amateur super heavyweight named Robert Salters (who boxed out of the U.S. Army) but I can assure you that any top amateur from that era knows him, as I do, from his stoppage (referee stopped contest) of the heavily favored Riddick Bowe at the 1988 U.S. Championships out in Colorado Springs. I wonder if Marcus Johnson of Gary, Indiana realizes that the guy he beat by decision early in the 1994 U.S. Championships in the super heavyweight division was future world heavyweight champion Hasim "The Rock" Rahman? Mike Johnson from Columbus, Ohio won a decision in the 125-pound finals over Thomas "Hitman" Hearns at the 1975 Ohio State Fair. The 1957 New York City Golden Gloves 147-pound novice finals saw Charles Wormley out of the Salem-Crescent A.C. in Harlem (Sugar Ray Robinson's home gym) win a decision over future multiple world champion and hall of famer Emile Griffith, who was fighting out of the W. 28th Park Department at the time. (Coincidentally, Griffith won the 1958 NYCGG welterweight title one year later in the open class with a finals night decision over Osvaldo Marcano of the Lynch Center PAL while one weight class up at middleweight was where future world light heavyweight champion Jose Torres, fighting out of the Empire S.C., won a decision over William Picket of the Webb-Churchill PAL.) Mike Brown of Sagle, Idaho won a decision in the 132-pound finals of the 1986 National Junior Olympics over future heavyweight champion Chris Byrd Felix Nance was a journeyman professional boxer with an average record compiled against the likes of Kevin Rooney, Davey Moore and Pedro Vilella. His claim to fame, though, came as an amateur boxer in the late 1970s when he scored a one-shot knockout over future Golden Gloves champion Marlon Starling at the Holyoke Boys Club in the Western Massachusetts Golden Gloves tournament. I also wonder if a guy by the name of Raynon Woods out of Phoenix, Arizona realizes he scored a late 1990s stoppage victory over future heavyweight contender Dominick Guinn. At the 1984 U.S. Olympic Box-Off, 132 pounder Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker was the favorite to make the United States team and he did, too. He not only made the team but he went on to capture the gold medal at the 1984 Olympiad in Los Angeles. What most boxing fans do not realize, though, is how close Whitaker actually came to not even making that team. Whitaker lost a 5-0 unanimous decision in the first bout at the box-off to Washington State's Joey Belinc and was therefore forced to face Belinc again a final match that would see its winner advance to Los Angeles. Whitaker came away with a razor thin 3-2 split decision in the finals to advance to Los Angeles and the rest, as they say, is history. I am not exactly sure why things turned out as they did in the pro game for Belinc but a check of his record tells me that he turned professional and went 17-2 with nine stoppage victories to his credit before retiring at just 22 years of age. In a 1990 USA-Canada duel meet, Tony Gonzalez out of Las Vegas scored a 119-pound decision over future superstar Arturo "Thunder" Gatti. Maybe the most interesting unsung boxer in amateur history is a Kentucky teenager from back in the mid 1950s (1957 to be exact) named Kent Green who scored what would turn out to be a stoppage victory that likely has been, and will continue to be, passed down through his family and friends from first and second hand accounts, a simple victory at the time that came over a fellow Kentucky kid by the name of Clay. Cassius Marcellus Clay to be exact.
True that. That was the best I've ever seen Tszyu. Crazy thing was he was not just dominating offensively but defensively. He was slipping Vernon's shots like Sweet Pea and countering the hell out of him. It was uncanny.
This is where I chime in with mY usual: If you have the first Tszyu vs Forrest fight that was televised in 1989 on USA network, I will make it worth your while. No, this isn't the stupid 1991 am championship fight. I think it was a usa vs russia dual meet and Tszyu had a different spelling back then...probably tschu or something like that and went by Konstantin. The quest goes on...
Chris Eubank was NOT a "WBO TITLE CHALLENGER" in the proper sense of the word...he WON the belt outright in two divisions, and only "challenged" in the sense that he fought for it and lost in the last few fights of his career: the 2nd loss to Collins, the losses at 190 to Thompson and the loss to Calzaghe in his last fight at 168. other notable ammy fights Jirov v Tarver 1996 Olimps. W Klitschko vs Luan Krasniqi Evander Holyfield vs that guy that went to jail. I think they shared 4 fights and Holy won the Olympic box off.
I would have reported this article but the link for doing so is broken.....in the mean time I am contributing as best I can. Fuck Maxboxing and the idiots they have working for them.
Calzaghe beating Byrd as an amateur is the one that really stands out.... i never knew that. Joe was an awesome amateur, shame that he never got his chance at the Olympics.
I didn't know that Calz beat Byrd in the ams, either, which is strange considering how many of their fights I've seen. I don't think that qualifies Joe to be considered an "awesome" amateur, though.
no i wasn't basing it on that....more on that he's unbeaten since the age of 15 and won 3 ABA titles at different weights........Robin Reid got the 92 spot ahead of him and got a bronze
