Sooooo....Is Taylor BETTER than U Thought OR is Pavlik WORSE than U Thought???...

After a Big Fight, there's Generally a CLEAR Sense of Boxing's Imaginary PENDULUM Swinging 1 Way or the Other...1 Fighter Walks Away w/More "Juice", More MOMENTUM than the Other...

After the 1st Bout, Pavlik Clearly SAPPED Taylor's "Juice"...But After Last Night, REED Thinks Taylor Got a Bit of his "Groove" Back...The Pendulum Swung Back Towards him Ever So Slightly...Taylor Performed MUCH Better than he Did the 1st Fight & MUCH Better than REED Ever Thought he Could...

Pavlik DIDN'T Lose (REED had him Winning Slightly & Could've Lived w/a DRAW),but he Wasn't Nearly as Scintillating as he Was the 1st Time, Obviously...

R U PLEASED w/Taylor's Performance, DISAPPOINTED by Pavlik's Performance or NEITHER???...Is Taylor BETTER than U Thought, is Pavlik WORSE than U Thought Or R Both Guys as Good as U Thought All Along???...



REED:dunno:

 

To be honest I didn't think it was a close fight, imo a draw as you suggest would have been a complete robbery. I thought Pavlik quite clearly won 8 rounds.

But Taylor fought well, very well, a lot more focused, and somehow less jittery than he ever has been.

Pavlik still did a number on him though.

I think it was more that Taylor performed better than anyone thought he would.

I also think he fought a lot more cagey, and showed better defense than the first fight.

It was a combination of a career best performance from Taylor, and Pavlik hurting his hands that meant Taylor went the distance.

IMHO he didn't really come close to winning that fight, so his stock can only go up so much. At least he didn't get KO'd again sort of thing.

 

Taylor DEFINITELY improved from the first fight... he was stronger and more energetic with the extra weight, and he put much more into his jab this time.

IMO, Pavlik's status stays about the same in my mind. He's tough and relentless (as he was in the first fight), but his attack is basically one-dimensional and unimaginative. He seems to be mostly just a "jab-cross" guy... he's not really good at varying his punches or punching at different ranges. Still, most of Pavlik's fights he wins largely with sheer guts, aggression, and persistence, so there wasn't any kind of "let down" IMO in him having to pull this one out... in fact, it's almost typical, and probably more of what we can expect from him in the future.

Basically, Pavlik performed up to my expectations, and Taylor exceeded them.

 

dsimon writes:

It was totally expected to me. Pavlik became a true professional top tiere guy imo because like Bernard (who beat Taylor that first fight) he dealt with Taylor.... professionally. Instead of going on adrenaline and trying to impress the fans he fought smart, like a champion. Champions know that if they follow a strategy, show the execution of the strategy the judges if they are not totally stupid will see that and award them the decision. Bernard and Pavlik both fought Taylor in a manner where they neutralized his strength and took him into deep water late and beat him up in the later rounds.

Taylor showed me his level of talent. His physical strength and his punching power could make him a champion in a weaker division if he can relax and get off a little more. Taylor showed me that he could be knocking people out with the right perspective.

 

Good Assessment...

Like U Alluded to, Pavlik is BASIC...But he's Basic N a GOOD Way...

The REAL Question is, Can ANYBODY Force Pavlik to Fight Going BACKWARDS???...& What Happens If/When this is Forced Upon Him...



REED

 

A lot of things occurred.

Firstly, Taylor fought in a way which meant that there was never likely to be a repeat of the first fight and his being KTFO, but equally, he fought in a way which made it virtually impossible to win from the get go. The only ways to beat Pavlik IMO is to be either an incredibly smooth slickster who can avoid Kelly's ramrod 1-2 attack, defend and take punches on the gloves or not at all and then counter, accurately and decisively OR be someone who simply comes forward and hits harder than Pavlik does.

Taylor tried the latter of these in the first fight and gassed and got bombed out. This time he tried the former but just isn't quite good enough to pull it off, though he did well and restored a lot of credibility (and probably confidence).

I always liked Taylor, actually. Though he was never one of my favourites, I always respected the fact that he ended Hopkins MW reign and fought 'name' opponents in the big bouts (whether or not he won or lost them, decisions or not). I also said he showed a lot of HEART in instantly rematching the guy who KO'd him and give him his first 'L', and he showed no little boxing SKILL in the bout itself.

The bigger weight definitely seemed to suit him (he has always claimed to struggle to make 160), and though I can't see him having much of a future at MW, where Pavlik will beat him 95 times out of 100 IMO, he DEFINITELY should consider a move to 168 where, with Joe moving out, he has a legitimate chance of beating everyone in there with the possible exception of Kessler (though he would still be a reasonably live dog in that one, IMO). His punch resistance seemed greatly improved, and his quick hands and power would be enough for him to thrive in what is a reasonably shallow SMW division.

As for Kelly, I thought he did well also. He didn't get discouraged when he failed to bomb his man out (as he has been accustomed to) and stuck to the task late on and hurt Jermain in the 11th. I also thought he won the bout pretty handily (by 3 rounds IMO).

The only concern is that which I voiced before the fight in my prediction- namely that sometimes, heavy handed MW's struggle to carry the same KO power up in weight. I cited Nigel Benn as a typical example, but he is not alone in this regard (Gerald McLellan, for example, is a P4P all-time puncher and a MONSTER puncher at 160 but he couldn't KO Benn at 168, despite Benn being regarded by many as 'chinny' and Benn being in big trouble in the first and eighth round of THAT fight). Pavlik relies heavily on his 1-2 and punching power as opposed to finesse and grace, and he needs to hurt what he hits. It seemed to me that he did not carry the same pop at 166 as he does at 160.

Whether this is a one off, down to Taylors better 'D' and punch resistance at 166 or due to his own ability to carry the extra power with the weight, only more bouts at the weight will tell. However, I see no real reason for him to move up a weight at all. He is the universally recognised MW champ of the world- he should stay and campaign there unless the fights really dry up and he feels he needs to move up and fight Kessler or Calzaghe at 168.

His failure to KO Taylor at 166 has no bearing at all IMO in relation to his punch power at 160. That has been proven and is beyond repute.

In conclusion, I thought both men came out of the fight enhanced, and in the case of Taylor, opened up a new avenue of opportunity now that his opportunities at 160 appear to be somewhat more limited whilst Pavlik is around.

MTF opcorn:

 

I think it was a good/great fight. Taylor fought the best he possibly could IMO. Pavlik showed he is just the better fighter. No harm or shame in that for Taylor, he definitely showed he belongs on the world class stage. I would still pick him over most top ten MW's. If I was Taylor I would try and get that fight with Tito at 168. Big money and he can win.

 

Taylors punches were giving Pavlik alot of trouble. He wasn't really getting close enough to land his right hand.

 

I think both showed what they are. Pavlik is just stronger than Taylor and that made the difference like in the first fight.

I always thought people underrated Taylor because he wasn't winning clearly since he fought Hopkins. Even if thought Taylor lost he showed he could compete agaisnt Hopkins and Winky which have been some of the best fighters in the world.

I haven't seen much of Pavlik until about 3 fights before the Taylor fight. Aside from his power he never impressed me. He is a sound overrall fighter but just never seem impressive.

The funniest thing to me is that Taylor damn near KOd Pavlik the first time. Yet because he was KOd somehow people didn't give Taylor a shot.

I am not surprised Taylor lost back to back to pavlik simply because he ran into someone stronger than him.

I also won't be surprised the day pavlik loses, he still doesn't impress me. It's not a knock on him he is the best middleweight around. But he is beatable.

 

....

Taylor's worse than I thought and Pavlik better. Why? Well because I didn't think Pavlik could win a 116-112 type decision over Taylor. Basic? Sure but Pavlik has a lot more than just a big punch.

 

Wager details for ticket number 488506372-1:

Wager Type: Money Line
Wager Status: Win
Risk / To Win Amount: 3700.00 / 2000.00 (USD) Accepted 2/16/2008 9:11 PM - EST
Amount Paid: 2000.00

Sport / Period: BOXING Other Sports / Game
Line:
Kelly Pavlik 2/16/2008 10:30:01 PM - (EST)
-185
* Game Notes:
HBO/PPV/MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE BOUT Official rules via www.wager-info.com

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Jermain Taylor won that fight...I know what I saw and Taylor won 8-4
________
Expert insurance

 

If Pavlik was better than you though why didn't he end up with a better result than the first fight?

It was basically a similar fight except Pavlik didn't stop him and didn't really hurt him until the 11th round. Clearly Taylor made adjustments and performed better while Pavlik did the same thing but wans't as effective.

 

Doesn't matter if Pavlik did better than the first time, he still won. he has shown he can beat taylor by KO or by decision. Since I didn't really think he could beat taylor by decision that makes Pavlik better than I thought.

 

Pavlik isn't shit until he beats someone else noteworthy. Taylor proved once again his style is like Holyfield, fighting down to the level of the opponent but unlike Holyfield....unable to get a credible W. Taylor's stamina is shit and sounds like to me, he will always have trouble with judging because of the style that seems to only work in spurts.

 

.....

Fighting down to the level of opponent? Pavlik is better than Taylor. He's proven it twice now while both are in there primes.

 

Taylor did just enough to compete from the sounds of it, and I am not sold on Pavlik because there was another close fight with Taylor. Taylor is conservative because of stamina issues, that's why I say he fights down to the level of his opponent.

 

....

Stamina is part of fighting. If Taylor throws more and tries to hard he would have gotten KO'ed again. He was actually pretty relaxed in the ring compared to normal. Unfortunantely for taylor, Pavlik don't have to be as conservative. Pavlik won both fights clearly to me, 1 by KO the other by dec. That is good enough for me to say he is better than Taylor.

 

Pavlik is what he is; simple, yet sturdy and consistent.

Taylor? He showed a couple of more wrinkles last night. Wrinkles he should have shown at some earlier point in his career. Still, his inactivity and lack of a willingnless to engage seemed to indicate to me that he was both afraid of suffering the same fate as before AND of protecting his stamina.

Not impressed.

 

Kelly was the same fighter to me. Taylor just improved, but it still wasnt good enough to win. Theres nothing wrong with Pavlik's power, its just that Taylor for the first time in his career actually showed some defense, which really surprised me. Kelly didnt look spectacular in winning, but he won none the less, and did legitimate damage to Taylor late, esp in the 11th.

Kelly will look spectacular again when he drops down to 160 and destroys Duddy.

 

You can say he's better than Taylor, I am saying not by much :dunno: Taylor has a history of tiring down the stretch, just like Oscar does. For whatever reason they fight conservatively to last.

 

You said Taylor was fighting down to his level of opposition. I didn't like that statement because Pavlik is better than him. He's proved it....twice, by dec and KO.

 

....and I explained why I said that, he fights enough to what ever his opponent is doing because he is saving himself. I don't care if you like it ::

 

.....

If you are fighting down to your level of opposition that means you are better than them. Taylor is not better than Pavlik. I don't really care why you said it, it's wrong.

 

It means you are not trying your best, simple.

 

Taylor does the best he can with the attributes he has. :dunno: You act like these guys are robots or something and should just be able to throw and throw without getting tired. :doh:

 

I agree

Pavlik still doesn't really impress me. He is a master at keeping his weight/size ratio incredibly low and maintaining excellent stamina (yes this in itself is a "skill" to some degree). Other than that, he is a average skilled fighter.

 

It blows me away that people seem to have forgotten how Pavlik absolutely destroyed Edison Miranda, who was supposed to be "the challenge" to Taylor before he got squashed.

Pavlik is not the best middleweight ever, nobody is claiming that, but he is without question the best right now.

 

agreed. as oer usual, lederman's card was ludicrous, and taylor's redemtion is largely due to his improvement over his last performance, not due to an outstanding performance in and of itself.

if you look at his punch count, it's clear his primary concern was not getting gassed, so that he could go 12, and hopefully get another gift decision. that's not fighting to win in my book.

Pavlik's performance was compromised by Taylor's refusal to lean on the ropes. That's to Taylor's credit, but not grounds for down-graqding Pavlik as a fighter.

 

A couple more points:questionas as to Taylor's chin have been answered - he has a sturdy one. Same is true of Pavlik.

 

I think Taylor is under-rated. Don't be surprised to see Pavlik convincingly destroy his next opponent, thereby demonstrating that Taylor is a legitimate threat at 160/168, even if he's not the best at 160.

Pavlik will decapitate Trinidad if that fight happens.