is Lewis a "top 5 hw of all time" ??

dont hate on Jimmy too much, he holds one of if not the quickest KO ever! He could very well stop Lemmon in 1 on his best night

 

dsimon writes:

What the hell is wrong with you!!!! You need to hit the sauce or something.... Thats a decent post! :bears: :cheer: You slippin on me? ::


Seriously very good perspective on Lewis and Stewart's "safety first" strategy. I also agree regarding champs in the division. Lewis might be the ultimate winner because of his power. Lewis also was always good defensively wheh he was alert..... in both KO's he looked like his mind was elsewhere before the fight, but in the Brigg's fight for example, one can see how good he is defensively and how he made Briggs pay right away when Shannon went after him. Ditto for the Tua fight.

 

dsimon writes:

BS. Hardest punch in the heavyweight division was probably a Joe Louis Right. And it remains so. Size is only a variable with punching power. There have been guys who were marginal heavies like Shavers who punched harder than big guys.

 

dsimon writes:

Reed I think your perspective on how we look at a great fighter is right on the money. I don't know if it is just that we both tend to like to write words, or look at history as more than just a straight line with a clock ticking away.... but indeed the dominance of Ali, Louis and Lewis has a lot to do with where the guys were in history. The way they fought also has a lot to do with their greatness.... Their style, so to speak.

For example, great as Jack Johnson was would he have made such an impact if he had a trainer like Manny Stewart making him consider safety first? No!! Johnson was an "infuriating Ethiopian" (true quote from Jack London) who taunted and was a sadist to his opponent. :: He made the rascists in the audience squirm, he didn't just win! And Louis during times of was when this nation needed to come together was the perfect type of champion for the times. Etc etc etc.

Greatness is more than punches and technique for sure. And ever since Hibernian downtrodden stevedores dared to beat up the Queen's heavies in merry old England, one measure of greatness that persists is the opportunity of a man to represent his people in that ring and to figuratively give the oppressor a proverbial black eye!

 

Joe Louis was basically a large cruiserweight, and while he was an excellent puncher - crisp, compact, hard and accurate - he was not a monster puncher. Especially not by today's huge heavyweight standards.

People like Tyson, Shavers and Lewis all hit considerably harder with single shots.

 

exactly correct :bears: The films don't tell you that but common sense should

 

that is ridiculous. if size is only one variable we should let manny pacquiao fight Kelly Pavlik and just see who hits harder:dunno:

Joe Louis, in terms of force, isn't one of the 25 hardest punchers, but his accuracy and placement was very good

 

Exactly. Damn it's good to finally here some legitimate reasoning around here.

It's amazing that people think the influence of size on punching power ends at 200 lbs.

Fans argue all day that Fighter X didn't have the same punch at 140 pounds that he had at 135 pounds yet, when there's a 25-30 pound difference between heavyweights like Lewis and Louis, the weight doesn't matter because Joe had such amazing technique. Bull shit.

 

dsimon writes:

Many people who were around Louis and guys like Shavers, etc said that Louis was the harder puncher, including Tyson BTW. So it is not my opinion, it is an opinion held by people who are a dying breed as time slips by..... people who were around long enough to see Louis and guys today. Now maybe others said the opposite :dunno: I don't know.

I didn't say size does not matter I said size is only one variable. It is a fact that some of the smaller heavies were some of the hardest punchers. For example, while Liston and Foreman were a good size and could crack, so could Shavers and Tyson who were smaller heavies. As a matter of fact some people still feel that Shavers was the hardest puncher in the heavies bar none.

Finally accuracy counts when deciding who is a harder puncher because punching straight means impacting the target faster and more accurately. We are not talking about hitting a bag, we are talking about delivering a punch in a fight.

 

this is one of the stupidest posts I have ever read. It looks like an exercise in identifying logical fallacies and unsound arguments, or a desperate retard's attempt at justifying themself.

I mean seriously, people who prop up Joe Louis as the hardest pucher ever are shamelessly retarded, that is all. There are the handicapped among us who think a good 200b guy hits harder than a good 250lb guy, and its simply because you guys suck at reasoning.

Tyson said fighter A hits harder? I'm sorry I don't remember Mike Tyson ever fighting either guy:dunno:

"Liston and Foreman were a good size and could crack, but so could SMALLER guys like Shavers and Tyson?"


Liston was 6' and anywhere from 205-215 during his prime.

Shavers was 6' and anywhere from 205-215 during his prime

Tyson was 5' 10" and anywhere from 215-220+ during his prime.

class is out.

 

People have been getting KTFO since Cain KTFO and killed Abel. Size matters in KOs, and I doubt yesterdays' heavyweights could compete with today's heavyweights.

However, there are so many factors that go into a KO that we will never know an answer or should even try to find one.

 

a top 5 hw of all time would not go life and death with Zeljio mackovision, a guy who seriously was about to die before the fight

 

Dsimon writes:

Lets start with the bottom. So weight is the only thing that makes one person bigger than another huh? So for example when Vlad was what 230 his last fight he was almost Tyson's size.... junior? Talk about retarded.

You saw me.... I weigh 240.... I guess I am pretty much a big heavyweight? If I walked in the ring Lewis would dwarf me yes? Weight is ONE measure of how big one is junior now you go back to class. Liston was a big stocky man, he would be bigger than Shavers in the ring, no matter what their respective weights were.

You also think weight is too important with respect to punching power. Its true that more mass equal's more force and mass is weight & density but speed is equally important and mechanics is even more important than weight or speed.

Lok's watermelon man can punch using his weight through a watermelon right? He probably hits with more weight than most boxers to do this. Does this make him a harder puncher junior? Think about it. Part of punching is the speed, the straightness, the dynamics of when the hand closes, the follow through... As a matter of fact punching is so complicated we could not build a robot that punches like a human being. I stand by my assertion.

Oh and..... Yes weight matters. But there is a difference between the gross weight of someone my wife's weight versus somoene twice her size. As compared to a difference of 50 pounds. And where the weight is distributed. If it is fat, bone density, muscle, it makes a difference which is why guys talk about somoene being big or strong regardless of weight. Mccline for example is a pussy but Mccall, or Rahman are considered "strong" weight is not the issue why.

 

Being big doesn't mean you punch hard, but bigger guys that punch hard, punch harder than smaller guys who also punch hard.

if 50 lbs doesn't matter, then lets let Kelly Pavlik and Jorge Arce fight, and see who hits harder.

You are the one that called Liston big and then Shavers and Tyson small.

Shavers and Liston ARE THE SAME FUCKING SIZE, thats why your point was unquestionably stupid.

I didn't even get into the fact that you said we need more people like "Tyson" who have seen both guys and can make an assessment. You do understand that Tyson has seen the same footage we all have, it isn't as if he's 75 years old as you seem to be incorrectly insinuating.

If that wasn't the insinuation then your logic was just pure filth, since we have all seen the footage of Louis compared to other heavies.

If you think a 200 lb Joe Louis hits harder than a 240 lb Lennox Lewis, then you are a fucking idiot. I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no logic that could make that statement true. There is a reason there are weight divisions, and there's a reason that physics exists.

The dynamics of delivering a punch are important, but you can not come here and pretend that sheer size is not relevant to the discussion. I don't care how many people come on here and try to tell me that Tito Trinidad won the DLH fight, those people are wrong. Likewise, for anyone who says Louis is the HARDEST puncher who ever lived, those people are equally wrong.

 

Tyson and Shavers are 2 people that can hit as hard as anyone in the heavyweight division, as hard or harder than significantly bigger men.


But they are TWO people in the history of heavyweight boxing. Both of them had freakish power.

There is absolutely no doubt at all that people like Lewis, 250 lb punchers hit MUCH harder than Louis, Marciano, Liston etc

Pavlik hits VERY hard at 160, but who do you think punches harder, Pavlik at 160 or David Haye at 200 lbs?

 

It's amazing that people continue to harp on mechanics as if Lennox Lewis didn't have beautiful technique on his fully extended and leveraged right cross.

It's not as if Lennox Lewis threw a shitty, chopping right hand that only hurt guys because of his weight. His right hand was deadly because, at 245 pounds and 6'5", he delivered it with fantastic form that allowed his size advantage to be realized.

In other words, sure Joe Louis had better technique than Lennox Lewis, but not 'better' enough to negate that huge size difference.

I think Felix Trindad threw a better left hook than Evander Holyfield. That being said, I'd much rather be hit by Tito's than Evander's.

 

top 5 all time no order

holmes
ali
foreman
tyson
lewis

 

I would have the same list.

 

In terms of matchups historically, there may be an argument here, but for all the bashing of Joe Louis I do, he is no worse than a top 3 HW of all time with Ali and Holmes.

 

for real..


you can not IMO have Lewis in a top 5 but not Louis:doh:

 

dsimon writes:

Your not addressing my point. I am not talking about sheer size. What I said was weight is one aspect of size. People have bigger or more bone mass sometimes, more length, more wingspan on their frame.

When people get bigger there are more reasons why they could weigh more and not necessarily be bigger. Pavlik is indeed obviously bigger than Jorge, as a matter of fact weight in and of itself has very little to do with it.

It is relevant that people who have seen all the big punchers have a certain opinion, don't be aggogant that way. You can disagree with me and you can disagree with them but if people who have seen Louis fight and Shavers fight for example, and think Louis punches harder, they are not all necessarily idiots. I am not talking about Sugar, I mean trainers who worked with the guys involved.

Do you think that weight is the only factor in determining someone's relative size compared to another person? Thats our disagreement if you do. Again I weigh what Lewis did at the height of his career. Lewis is a much bigger person than I am. I guarantee that if I stood next to him you would see how much bigger he is than me. And while I have a few extra pounds, that is not the reason for the size discrepency.... He has bigger hands, bigger feet, a bigger head, a bigger frame. I have a bigger cock though which could be a big weight difference.

 

Bigger......

 

Do you think he also has a bigger, heavier penis?

 

:: :: :: :eeeek:

 

Dsimon writes:

Louis had that type of power. And if you watch his delivery he had speed and precision as well. Remember Mex when we talk about power of a shot delivered precision and accuracy are part of the equation. You act like Shavers and Tyson were the only exceptions. marciano did not punch that hard, he punched often BTW.

Also please don't misunderstand. I think Lewis punches very hard. Frankly he may punch harder than Louis for all any of us know. But many scribes think Louis was and is the harder puncher and I tend to agree.

 

dsimon writes:

Man when I get a n erection I get dizzy from the blood drain. ::

 

remember someone here or maybe it was back at boxing or boxingtime, posted info on how and why Marciano could punch harder than a bullet?::

 

That was BoxingTime and the poster was Richard Layne... He had test results from the 50's that proved Marciano hit harded than a missle.

:: :: ::

I used to love that guy. He stated once that Marciano threw punches non-stop so I posted a 35 second clip from the Archie Moore fight during which Marciano threw 2 punches. The guy wanted to kill me.

 

::