I told you all

I do give JMM credit indeed.

He is a BRILLIANT fighter, and he impressed me in this fight. He is 34, and that was a very good performance, at least as good as the first fight.

But most of you just fail to understand, this is something I have been saying since the Solis fight, it has nothing to do with the quality of opposition, and nothing to do with Marquez.

 

Exactly what? It's not that Manny only had the fire when Marquez was weak, to support your argument that it was marquez that made manny tentative.

Quite simply, when he saw his "prey" hurt, like any combative creature, it triggered a bit of a spark, a bit of fighting instinct that was otherwise absent.

I've been saying this long before the Marquez fight Donny, since the first round of the Solis fight.

I'm sure you read many of my posts leading up to this fight, so don't at like it was just Marquez that made manny tentative and lose his fire.

He was just as lacking in fire against Solis and Barrera.

 

100% bang on :bears:

 

:nono:

Not only do I agree with this, but I also alluded to it when posting my prediction in Illum's 'Prediction Thread'.

http://www.fightbeat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24336&page=9

It doesn't necessarily mean that Pac has somehow become a bad fighter, because he clearly still one of the very best in the world, but that early, hungry Pac was a killer.

The Manny who now wants to be a politician does enough to win, but that deadly killer instinct has been weened from him. I thought I saw clear evidence of this against Marco last time out and it was there again on Saturday.

Mex was right all alone, as was Tam and so now is the converted REED. :clap:

 

When you fight a guy who makes you miss and makes you pay like Marquez your fire will look lost.

Manny might look like shit against Diaz and that will be more to do with taking him lightly. If he takes Diaz as seriously as he took JMM, Diaz will be KTFO.

 

How many fucking times do I have to tell people - it has NOTHING TO DO WITH MARQUEZ.

I've been saying since the Solis fight. Were solis and scared Barrera also the causes of Manny's loss of fire?

No, quite simply his heart is not in it anymore, he doesn't have the passion to fight that he used to.

It's funny all these marquez fans chiming in, using marquez as the reason, when actually in the first fight like REED pointed out in this thread, manny had far more fire and aggression. He is not the same fighter anymore.

 

The Manny of Old would Much Rather KEEP THROWING & MISSING, than Get DISCOURAGED from Missing & Start Focusing on ECONOMY...


REED

 

pacquaio was whining and clearly wanted OUT against sanchez when he was cut. he reacted very poorly that night. terrible example

 

wasn't that the point of him becoming a complete fighter? when he used to keep throwing and missing is when he was a raw fighter.

Isn't that the sign of a fighter that has improved and matured? It would be silly for Manny to fight a better boxer in JMM and still make the same stupid mistakes he did 4 years ago.

part of the reason he used to fight like that is because that's all he knew. It is pretty well known that he trained his ass off for this fight. Why would he do that just to be gun shy in the ring?

It makes no sense! The guy is just a smarter fighter now. He is still beating quality competition and hasn't lost since the first Morales fight.

Even if I thought JMM won I don't have a problem with Manny getting the W

some of you have some ridiculous expectation of Pacquiao if he can compete at this level against this competition and you still rip him for losing his fire. ::

 

He was Headbutted ON PURPOSE 3-4 Times AND PURPOSELY Hit LOW 3-4 Times...

Yet he was "Whining" "Clearly Wanted Out"???:dunno: ...If that's the Case WHY did the Ref DQ Sanchez???...:dunno:

So U DIDN'T See Manny PACING the Ring ANGRILY, Dripping Blood, Wiping the Blood Off his Brow THEN LICKING his Own Shit...Point Out ANYTIME N the Marquez Fight where Manny's Demeanor even REMOTELY Resembled this, Upon being Cut???...

The Funny Part is, the Sanchez Cut was WORSE than the Marquez Cut...The Sanchez Cut was FLAGRANT; the Marquez Cut WASN'T...



REED

 

Diaz is a bum. He´s a gimmie for every semi-decent fighter that can walk into a ring on his own legs, and Morales beat him even without his legs. Although I agree Manny has trouble fighting of the backfoot.

 

Uuuuuuuh, he Kept Throwing & Missing Right Jabs-Straight Lefts N the 1st Fight...THAT was the Point N him Becoming More Complete, to VARY his Attack...

& he IS...He Actually Dropped Marquez w/a Left HOOK this Time...But the Fire to FINISH Marquez,or @ Least ATTEMPT to, WASN'T Present...


REED

 

Latin King, you're missing the point. The lack of fire was just as evident against Solis and Barrera.

It just so happened, I was making everyone aware of it before this fight.

 

sanchez wasnt DQed. that fight was stopped on cuts and went to the scorecards.

 

Fair Enough...

REED Knew Manny Didn't LOSE or QUIT N that Fight, so he ASSumed Sanchez was DQ'ed...

If Manny was Able to WEATHER BLATANTLY Dirty Tactics to WIN a TD, REED Doesn't See HOW he Could B Accused of "Trying to Get Out" of the Fight...


REED

 

Actually manny was robbed that night of his win and only given a draw.

 

Wonderful!:doh:



REED::

 

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

The "Pacman" of old got schooled by JMM, something he didn't come close to doing on Saturday. Give it a break. The guy's better than ever.

 

Idiot. This fight was much closer.

I had it 6 rounds a piece, with the knockdown clinching the deal.

The first fight Manny won CLEARLY, and knocked Marquez down 3 times in the process.

And regardless of who you had winning the fight, if you can't see that Manny has lost his fire and passion to fight, you're simply not a very observant or astute boxing fan.

And like I've told the others, this has been evident since the first round of the Solis fight, NOT just agaisnt Marquez.

 

to me the so called fire you claime is missing was just his relentless attack because he was so limited. All he could do is come forward like a mad man.

The problem is he kept running into massive punches. Just because he wans't getting droped doesn't mean he wasn't getting hurt. Even in the Morales fights he got rocked a couple of times but ended up winning impressive so people over looked that.

Back in 2004 he dropped JMM 3 times and JMM came back stronger. Clearly Manny knows more than anybody how dangerous JMM can be even when he appeared hurt.

I wasn't surprised he didn't try to finish him on Saturday after the knockdown.

It's funny though after all this Manny won the fight and has been winning. And all you do is rip him for losing his fire.

I saw enough exchanges with JMM to know he still got it. Same with Barrera but Barrera went into a shell and was happy to survive.

Manny eventually stopped Solis so I dont' see how can you critize that performance.

HOnestly looking back I don't know what performance you were looking for in those fights you claim he had lost his fire.:dunno:

 

Well LATIN, I guess the best thing to do is watch both Barrera fights. If you can't see the difference. I don't know what to say :dunno:

Manny used to be a fucking killer in there, he used to look like he was actually enjoying hurting people, and was just thirsrt for a fight, Duran style.

He doesn't have that anymore, at all. Like REED said, he is not even willing to engage/trade anymore. Even against Barrera, who is not a big puncher, and has never hurt pacman at all.

He doesn't have that killer instinct anymore.

Where as Morales for example, good technical boxer, and even when he became shot, NEVER lost his fire, Morales is just a warrior.

It's something that I can just see in his eyes too, REED has noticed the same thing, he doesn't have that same energy, that same spark, that trademark grin etc. He just has that LOOK when you know fighters don't REALLY want to be there anymore, and are just going through the motions etc.

Pacman has lost the warrior spirit.

 

The ONE Time Manny TRIED to Put Some Hurt on Solis, he KO'ed him...Prior to that, it was a VERY Ho-Hum Performance from Pac...

No Name Opponent, Filler Fight, so REED Could Somewhat Excuse Manny for a Lackadasical Peroformance...WHEN he Decided to Dial it UP, Manny Got him OUT of there...But WHAT has Solis Done BEFORE or SINCE his Fight w/Pac, to Show that he's GOOD Enough to have Lasted as Loooooooong as he Did???:dunno: ...

Against Barrera, there was a "Silent Contract" that Teddy Atlas ALWAYS Talks about...Barrera DIDN'T Get Tooooooo Frisky, Manny DIDN'T Dial it Up...Did YOU See ANY Point N the RE w/Barrera where Manny went Balls to the Wall to Try & STOP Barrera???:dunno: ...

REED Understands FULLY that Manny WOULDN'T B as Reckless against Marquez, but to Almost Completely ABANDON what Got him to Where he is, was Shocking...& for Manny to Show LESS Aggression than the 1st Fight, while Possessing MORE TOOLS, was a CLEAR Sign to REED that he's Not QUITE the Same Guy....



REED

 

you guys go from calling him one dimensional and thoughless to being heartless and reluctant. You just don't like it. Just admit it.

 

I've never called him one dimensional and thoughtless. He was a highly aggressive attacking fighter, that was his style, that's what he did, and he did it very, very well.

 

I actually agree with some of your points here, and I've raised similar points myself in the past (after his fight with Larios).

BUT...

I don't think this fight is a good measuring stick for proving that. Pacman was made to look tentative in their first fight too, and for even longer stretches.

 

PacMan hasnot lost his fire.......he is just fighting the best competition he has ever fought in the past four or five years.

He isn't as good as some like to suggest,.....nor is he as flawed as some like to suggest.


He is an in shape guy with alot of enthusiassm , skill, power and speed who has alot of flaws. But he makes up for those flaws with determination.

 

Exactly.

 

No, not exactly.

FORGET THE MARQUEZ fight. I sussed this out from the Solis and Barrera fights, NOT Saturday's fight.

And if you really want to talk about Marquez, then OK, like REED and I have pointed out, Pacman was far more aggressive in the first fight, even in rounds he lost, than he was on Saturday.

Pacman has lost the raw aggression and fury, and desire to fight and trade and do damage, that made him so formidable in the first place.

You can see it all the way down to the look in his eyes. He used to have that glint in his eye, Duran style almost, like he relished a war.

In his last 3 fights he just looks........... disinterested in comparison.

 

Look, bro, I hear you. I am not saying Manny is EXACTLY the same fighter he was 5 or 7 years ago. JMM isn't either.

But I think this "fire" thing is being WAY over-exaggerated. I've been following Manny since he beat Nedal Hussein at 122 in 2000 and have seen pretty much all of his fights since then.

So hear me out...

Solis was awkward and admittedly Pac did not train fully for that fight - he still KO'd him.

Barrera in the rematch came to fight defensively - but when Manny swarmed, instead of covering up (as he did in the first fight) he fought back and traded, which made Manny hesitant in spots. Marco learned from Morales and Marquez I - AND FOUGHT BACK when Manny swarmed. That makes a difference.

Also keep in mind neither Morales nor Barrera hit nearly as hard at 130 (or 126) as Marquez does.

Vs. Marquez II - the same dynamics were there that were present in 2004 after the 1st round. Manny trying to attack in spurts, with a lesser workrate and more hesitation because of Marquez's footwork, counters and power/accuracy.

It seems to me that if Manny isn't blitzing opponents and recklessly swarming them with unorthodox, off-balance flurries and taking shots in the process; people assume something must be wrong.

But he can't do that with every fighter. The incoming, the power, the strength, the stamina, the skill level is different.

1) He looked bad in quite a few spots and for some stretches vs. Larios - even getting rocked by Oscar - 5 fights ago.

2) Vs. Morales II, he was once again losing the fight and being outboxed early...until he started to come on in the middle rounds and finally stopped a very faded Erik...6 fights ago.

3) He lost to Morales 7 fights ago.

Maybe it all began when he hit 130 lbs???

4) He looked sloppy in alot of spots vs. Vazquez. Yeshmagambetov (at 126) put him on his butt with a right hook.

The last time he looked "like Manny"? Knocking out a VERY faded, weight-drained Morales in the rematch in the fight JUST before the "last 3 fights".

Just feels a little too convenient, bro.

Manny has ALWAYS been a streaking fighter...from fight to fight as well as within them. Usually, unless he hurts his man early, he usually takes a few rounds to really get going.

I can understand the argument that Manny is showing some decline...he probably is; and he IS at 130 (his 4th or 5th division since he turned 18) and has 51 fights on his odometer.

People seem to be forgetting that Manny is fighting at 130 lbs. now.

But I struggle to understand this thing about the "fire being gone" all of a sudden making big differences in his last 3 fights...especially when he was so prepared and motivated for this last one.

This is NOT the fight to judge that by.

Oh - and workrate?

Pac in First Marquez Fight: 639 punches thrown; 231 power punches thrown.

Pac in Second Marquez Fight: 619 punches thrown; 305 power punches thrown.

JMMhas always been able to slow down Manny's pace as a puncher, even 4 years ago at 126. This is true when compared to the Barrera fight where Manny threw 838 total punches.....but then again, MAB pretty much went into a shell in that fight, which goes back to my original point.

People are wielding the "lost his fire argument" as if, were he to have had it; he would and should have steamrolled over JMM just like any other opponent....and as if he can just blitz people at 130 (and 135) like he did at 122 or 126.

That is simply not true as shown.

Has he declined? Sure.

THat's all I'm saying.

Peace.

 

You know you've lost when you rely on punchstat numbers :tease:

Donny - Barrera turned up fighting defensively? Sure, but after being knocked down and taking a shellacking in the first fight, he was often pretty defensive then too.

That didn't stop manny from steaming into him and beating the shit out of him, round after round.

Are you seriously telling me that the Manny of 2003, if you put him in with the defensive rematch Barrera, that Manny wouldn't charge his arse every single round like before?

Solis was awkward? Not THAT awkward actually, Manny just didn't fight with any fire. He looked disinterested.

And Marquez is an A class fighter sure, but Manny even showed more fire in the first fight, and more willingness to engage, trade etc.

How do you explain the fact that Manny (in his last three fights, not just with marquez) is less aggressive, comes forward less, is less willing to engage, doesn't throw the straight left with as much conviction, often looks disinterested or slightly lacking in focus, doesn't have that same glint in his eye and trademark grin duran style.

You may be doubting it now, but I think that's partly just to make it seem like Marquez's doing. But you shall soon see. REED, BTG, feebs and a few others now see what I picked up on.

He'll move up to 135, win a lackluster decision over Diaz, not showing much fire or passion to fight, and you shall have no other option than to see the light.

From the very first round of the Solis fight I could tell that Manny appeared to have lost his fire. But it's only 1 fight, and I was prepared to write it off as one fight. But it's now 3 fights in a row where Pacquiao has simply lost his trademark fire, aggression and warrior spirit.