Does Cintron have...

Actually it was ironic, all the widespread hatred aimed at Margarito was fierce and intense from the droves of heartbroken Fraud-groupies, which lead Dan Goossen to believe he could take advantage of the status quo and exact revenge on Antonio through the mandatory status of Fraud's new stable-mate, Paul Williams, and use the exact same ''ducking'' ''fearing'' angle in some desperate attempt to cause a huge contradiction, and rub out all the damage Fraud publically had caused to himself. :crafty: This proved to be a relief to Margarito who now had a career high purse to fall back on IF Arum chose to opress him with a "beggers can't be chosers" attitude when negotiating a Cotto fight and an extension of his contract under top rank, ........Arum did,..... and consequently for him, and the ROARING Fraud groupies, screaming "HE'S DUCKING PAUL WILLIAMS!!! HE'S DUCKING PAUL WILLIAMS!!!" in protest outside negotiation quarters and messageboards alike ....they were SHUT THE FUCK UP in one BRUTAL press announcement.........

"Margarito to defend his WBO welterweight title against mandatory challenger Paul Williams!".........

KABOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*Nuclear fallout*




.........only the true hypocritical morons ushered that he was now ducking Cotto, but the truth of the matter was, that Margarito had brutally owned Fraud's groupies once again!!!.....:laughing: Margarito had managed to "shoulder-roll" his way out of the most heated and passionate counter attack I think warefare through the press in boxing, has ever seen :: .

 

Yeah, because Quartey pales in comparison to the mighty Danny perez and no chins lewis ::

I can't believe you tried to hype Marge's win over lewis, a guy that mayorga had already destroyed and at the point was highly regarded by........................ no one.

Shit, even Mayo's fans don't hype his win over him, despite the fact he crushed him first.

If six heads Lewis is a glowing entry on someone's resume, it sure as fuck isn't "stellar" ::

Quartey was better than anyone Marge has faced, and it's not even debatable. Including the guys he's lost to, Santos and Williams.

 

Bumped for Boohairy.

Because that was a fairly significant point in your argument. Essentially if you have to resort to "Margarito arguably won the fight" - you're coming off as incredibly bias.

Saying some people scored the fight for Margarito, is essentially saying "Margarito arguably won", but you're covering yourself because you personally didn't score the fight for marge. It's a silly argument because only a complete idiot would score that fight for marge and I think you know it.

Anyone with 2 eyes knew Williams won that fight clear, it wasn't even particularly close.

I don't know if you've noticed, but in almost EVERY fight that goes to a decision, that's not a clear whitewash, there's usually a few people that think the loser won, and sometimes even people in "press row".

So basically, to include "some people think marge won the fight" is pretty desperate, because I know, and you know, and anyone with 2 eyes should know that marge didn't win the fight.

I also bet these ringsiders who scored the fight for Marge are part of the california maxboxing crew who want to have Marge's babies, correct?

No I don't think it is ridiculous. Marge was offered the fight, and turned it down, therefore ducking him. It's not a ridiculous idea, it's a fact.

Turning down a big fight with Cotto, having the chance to become the "man" at welterweight and setup more big money fights, possibly even one with Floyd - to keep some stupid WBO belt nobody cares about is stupid and ridiculous.

Um, relinquishing his stupid belt and fighting cotto is EXACTLY what he should have done. Nobody cares about belts these days, most fans and most fighters don't. Fighter get called "champions" without even having a belt. Barrera and Pacman have both been considered champs of weight classes, whilst being beltless.

So say he did relinquish his belt, fight Cotto, win in impressive fashion, become an overnight star, become "the man" at welterweight, and setup more big money fights AND have the WBA belt.

This would be a stupid idea right? It would be much better to just hang on to his WBO belt that nobody cares about, and stick to the sidelines of the world boxing stage?

Seriously, what are you on about? :notallthere:

The only possible reason for rejecting the cotto fight is that he didn't fancy his chances.

If he beat Cotto, he would break into the big time, just like Nard did when he bashed Tito, just like Pacman did when he bashed Barrera etc etc

Not only that, but he would have Cotto's WBA belt to replace his precious WBO one ::

 

No, because your dumb a** had no idea what you were talking about. Asking why he didn't fight Quartey when Ike had been retired for two years. Anything else, oh knowledgeable one?

You're funny ::

Who said he wasn't? Once again, further proof that you comprehend little.

 

Boohairy? Cute...I think I heard the same thing in 3rd grade.

I saw this, no need to re-up. But thanks. Just didn't feel like wasting my time.

Again, I repeat - I should have ended the conversation when you asked why Margarito didn't fight Ike Quartey. :laughing:

 

Why shouldn't he have fought Quartey? :dunno:

He could have fought quartey circa 2000, or when quartey came back more recently a couple of years ago.

You were aware of this right? And that he fought Forrest and Winky?

And you were aware that around the time that Marge pushed for a fight with Santos (who was clearly one of the best fighters in boxing), quartey was also around, fighting the likes of Oscar and Vargas?

Kenny - have you by any chance met Marge in real life?

And please enlighten me, you knowledgeable insider you, on why it was a smarter move to reject the cotto fight if he fancied his chances, when an impressive win would have propelled him into the limelight, likely made him an overnight star, and got him a belt? ::

 

Wasn't there an Arum/Top Rank contract issue there re margarito-cotto where TR were, last minute, using the Cotto fight as bait only if he signed a longer term contract....apologies if this has been discussed already in thread....I don't remember it just being a case of margarito wishing to hang onto the WBO strap

 

Did you follow boxing back then? Are you seriously asking me this? ::

Yeah - he fought the comebacking Vernon Forrest and a middleweight Winky...what does this have to do with anything? You're sinking deeper and deeper...

You are aware that you are absolutely wrong right? And "pushed for a fight with Santos"....what? :laughing:

Not that it matters but...yes.

Who said it was a smarter move? I certainly didn't think so. I would have NEVER taken a high-risk, low-reward bout against the dangerous Paul Williams over big money in Cotto. What does this have to do with anything?

 

Absolutely right.

 

So then you would also say that Wright, Mosley and Mayweather "ducked" Margarito, right? Given they were offered the fight, and they turned it down? Because they didn't "fancy their chances?"

Just checking for consistency.

As for fighting Quartey in 2000. You explain to me why Quartey, who was a WWT titleist since '94, had defended his title 7 times and fought the likes of Espana, Lopez, Phillips, Carr and Jones....and had lost the title to DLH in '99 and in 2000 was fighting Vargas for the Jr. Middleweight title....

SHOULD have even considered Margarito back in 2000, when Antonio was 19-3 and fighting to even be ranked in the top 20.

Again...Margarito has come to prominence as a "legitimate player" at WWT FOUR years ago...in 2004.

And you're really telling me that you would have given Margarito 'credit' for calling out an old, come-backing Quartey in 2006 or 07? BTW - Quartey insisted on fighting at 154 or 160.

Fair is fair and context matters.

Peace.

 

Quartey was just one of the "names" I threw in there, why are you acting like he's the only fighter I mentioned, and like Marge's career rested on fighting him? ::

He just happens to be one of the world class welterweights that's been around at roughly the same time as Margarito.

Now seeing as Marge moved up to 154 to fight Santos, he could have done the same with Quartey, theoretically.

Again, I'm not saying he ducked quartey or anything of the kind, I just mentioned quartey as one of the names that he could have, in theory, fought.

Fuck, he could have fought vargas too at 154. I'm sure Vargas would have happily fought margarito. Nice Californian Mexican battle.

 

I broke down ALL of the names you mentioned. But the fact that you mentioned him...wow.

No he wasn't, Geezus Christ! You know what? I'm done with this debate. PEACE.

 

No. We've broken them ALL down.

My friend, in this instance, it is YOU who have been reading selectively. Everything you continue to bring up has been answered in previous posts.

And no - Quartey was not a "world class welterweight around the same time as Margarito."

Read like the last 10 posts in detail, point by point.

Do your homework! ::

Good discussion....but it's getting repetitive which means it's come to a natural end.

Peace.

 

I thought so, this certainly explains a few things.

It's nothing bad. I would stick up for boxers I know in real life too, but sometimes you have to be objective, especially if you're an aspiring pro boxing scribe.

Um, hold your horses Ken...

Here you're essentially inferring that Marge did the logical thing by turning down cotto and keeping his title, no? :dunno:

Even though I've been arguing vehemently against you, I'm not even really a Marge hater, I even bet on him against Williams.

But it's as clear as day, it's at LEAST as much marge's fault that he is the ONLY highly regarded, world class fighter in the last decade from 140-154 that has had no marquee fights.

Guys like Morales, Floyd, Pacman, Chico etc MADE those fights happen. They didn't fucking sit there whining, and then reject the FIRST chance they had to be in a proper big fight against an undefeated, big name champion.

 

I have, and sure, Quartey moved up to 154, I know that :dunno:

But then again, the Santos fight was at 154 yes? :dunno:

 

Don't bail out now Ken, read 2 posts up.

 

Explains what? I've met Floyd Mayweather WAY more times than I met Antonio Margarito who I met only because I interviewed him for this site! And I've met Ike Quartey more times than you can imagine, seeing as how I have bumped into him several times back home in Ghana. You have NO point. Go away.

Are you slow? I don't believe he ducked Cotto, point blank period. End of story. How do you make these inferences? Because I didn't think it was wise of him to take the Williams fight?? No, I didn't think so but I don't blame him!!

Dude, just let it go. You are so selective it makes you appear dumb. But I know you aren't - you just read what you want and fail to grasp what goes against your point.

 

No, you don't know sh*t. That's the point. Quartey RETIRED after the Vargas fight in 2000. The Santos fight occured a year later. Just STFU and give it a rest.

 

I know lots of shit, about boxing, and many, many other things

I never even suggested that he should have fought Quartey way back when. When that name first came to mind, I was more thinking about his comeback.

I wouldn't have complained about that at all, seriously. Say if Marge had agreed to fight him instead of forrest.

Not only would I not have complained, but I would have picked Quartey. I would also pick Forrest and Winky over Margarito.

Again, you're focusing so intently on me mentioning Ike, and the dates of Ike being a welterweight at the same time as Marge not cooinciding, whilst ignoring my primary point.

Margarito is the ONLY highly regarded fighter in a division, and neighbouring divisions, packed with talent over the last decade, to not fight one big name opponent... ever.

Now certainly, some name fighters passed on fighting margarito because he was fairly high risk, yet low reward, yet Margarito has to take the majority of the blame.

Fighters in his position campaign harder than he has to establish themselves. And you fucking know it. Including your loverman Floyd, he was pretty proactive in getting his arse on the map and fighting name fighters.

What did margarito do? Shuffling around on the sidelines moaning and whinging, getting sucked off hourly by the maxboxing crew, then turning down a cotto fight?

Fighters in Margarito's position do whatever it takes to get the fights they want.

Look at pacman, on 2 week's notice flew in from the phillipines and fucking demolished ledwaba.

That's the sort of thing a fighter does when he wants to get known and become a big player in boxing. Not sit around whining.

So Kenneth - do you or do you not think he should have rejected the Cotto fight?

Margarito is the only person I can think of to get this much hype and this mythical level of "underrated"-ness, whilst never having beaten an elite fighter, or even fought one.

 

MWS...even REED is long-gone from this thread. ::

Harping on the Cotto point is ONE point/issue...which has been addressed and talked about as well - and acknowledged (at least by me).

Salaco had a great point as well.

Marge shares some blame....but there is plenty of it to go around with othe fighters, period.

And with the time in which he emerged as a legit force at WWT. Bringing up names of that era is just mistaken.

And the idea of "dumping" a belt is just naive. Boxing is a business, and the belt means more money. And again, only true MEGA-stars can afford to drop belts at a whim....and when you really look at it, even then, most simply DO NOT. The belts MEAN alot to boxers still, at the end of the day.

Anyway - it's all in there.

Peace.

 

But Donny, it's really, really simple.

If marge fancied his chances against Cotto, he would still have a belt. Not only that but if he won in impressive fashion he'd be an overnight star.

So you tell me, why did he turn down Cotto? It can't be the belt, because he would have won another one had he defeated cotto.

 

My problem with Margarito is that he did fuck all for more than 18 months after his breakthrough (kind of) win against Cintron other than (a) whinge about how he was due a fight against mayweather and (b) fight Shotgun Diaz in a top rank PPV which made bugger all money...I remember on the same broadcast in the post fight interview, arum showing him a contract for the mayweather fight for that July and telling him all that was required now was mayweather's signature ::

 

He was supposed to fight Gomez on the undercard of Klitschko-Rahman, but when that fell through the fight was postponed, and after Showtmie and HBO passed on it, Arum put it on as a small pay per view.

During this time, Arum did reportdly make a $6 million dollar offer to Mayweather for the fight, but he balked.

 

It Became Apparent to REED that NOBODY was Gonna Change their Mind about Margarito, so he's Chosen to Move On:: ...

Some Feel like Margarito has been GYPPED, PURPOSELY Neglected from the "Big" Fight Welterweight Scene...Others Feel like Margarito has HIMSELF to Blame, Having Either NOT Tried Hard Enough to Get "Big" Fights OR Turned Down Opportunities for those "Big" Fights...

Obviously, REED Falls on the LATTER Side(:: ),so it Gets MILDLY Frustrating Debating Back & Forth over a Guy who ISN'T Even Worth it, N REED's Opinion...Sooooner or Later, he'll LOSE AGAIN & it'll B Clear that he was NEVER Worth the Amount of Time that some Invested N him:tease: ...

GOOD, "Hard" Debate Overall...& Certainly LENGTHY...A GOOD Example of how Boxing Debates SHOULD B...


REED:clap:

 

Oh, I know the circumstances but at the end of the day, and Arum hold plenty of responsibility, he blew all of his post-cintron momentum waiting for a payday...I guess mws's point is that sometimes you have to take great risks to reap the big rewards later on and Margarito and his people have been guilty of siting and waiting to some extent IMO

 

Let's just remember that at the time, Cotto hadn't yet beaten Judah or Mosley and Williams hadn't lost to Quintana yet.

Williams was the number one contender and Arum had delayed the Williams defense in order to make the Clottey fight. Williams mandatory shot was due, if not over-due. Margarito would've been accused of blatant ducking had he not taken the Williams fight (and he took it, and is now blamed for ducking Cotto). Apparently, he was going to have to duck someone in order to make another fight.

There was reportedly miscommunication between Arum and Margarito's camp. He had originally agreed to fight Cotto, but when news came he was going to be stripped, he supposedly agreed to a purse bid (which Top Rank didn't participate...because it thought the Cotto fight was still on).

Goossen won the purse bid of around $1.5, which meant Margarito would get $1.2 or so. Goossen supposedly guaranteed an additional $300,000+.

That's not much less than the $1.8 million he was supposedly offered to fight Cotto.

Lawsuits came but eventually it was ironed out and Margarito took the $1.5+ million to fight Williams (which became the centerpiece of an HBO triple-header) and Arum said if he won, he'd fight Cotto in the fall.

It was a gamble and had Margarito beaten Williams (and he came very close) it would have been a smart move on his part.

As it were, he lost a close fight, fought an easy tune-up against Johnson on the under, and now finds himself in a similar circumstance where if he wins against Cintron he'll likely fight Cotto.

 

Bingo!!!...

Some Fighters Sit Back & BITCH about being "Ducked", Other Fighters Position THEMSELVES to where it's HARD to B "Ducked"...

Winky, Forrest, JM Marquez R RECENT Examples...

Junior Witter is Currently N the PROCESS of Doing this...


REED

 

Yes, you understand.

Marquez was guilty of it, and for a good while Nard and Winky were also guilty of the same thing.

People like Pacman just went out there and grabbed the bull by the horns, and became overnight stars.

Donny - I am not arguing with you. You at least admit that Marge is partially to blame. Ken doesn't. He also sees Marge's resume as "stellar". If Marge's resume is stellar, then Mayorga's is astronomically good.

 

Actually, I'd say luck has a lot to do with it. Only reason why Winky broke through was because Mosley turned down a lot of money to fight Oscar and fought him instead. A lot of name fighters wouldn't do that.

Also, I'd add that Margarito positioned himself when he beat Six Heads. And when he beat Cintron.

Either way, doesn't matter. We're getting good fights at 147 now and, for the most part, this has been one heck of a debate.

 

Wright had supposedly turned down over a million dollar payday to fight Mosley years prior to that, which was why he and Top Rank split.

It was also fortunate for Wright that Mayorga lost to Spinks.