That's exactly my point. You said Jones still has retained much of his skill and handspeed but my point is, despite all that skill he's lost so much confidence that it's affected his skills. That's why he fights so restrained and passively. Maybe I'm not wording it right. I'm not saying skills and confidence are one and the same, I'm saying it goes hand in hand. For example, Roger Federer has insane skills but when he lost a very important match at a Grand Slam, it started a downward spiral where he soon began losing to guys whom he was obliterating with ease prior. Because he lost his confidence and suddenly felt 'human'. He didn't believe in himself anymore. That's the case with Jones. Adding to that, Jones is also an old man by boxing standards(or any standards).
Skills and confidence are two different elements. I could be the most skilled player/fighter ever if I don't have confidence then I won't get far. Their not the same, but you need both. Roy's skills are still impressive. He hasn't lost as much as you think. He just doesn't care about winning anymore if he has to work for it.
I didn't say anything about ranking Roy top 10. What I argued was the absurd claim that only two LHW's stand a favorable chance of beating Roy. Besides Calzaghe, two already own scoreboard and a psychological advantage over Roy (Tarver and Johnson). And I can't see how anyone would argue that Hopkins doesn't at least stand a good chance of beating him... a case has been made for Hopkins all decade, but now in 2008 he no longer stands a chance? Petre was attempting a hard sell on how great Calzaghe was last night. No question Joe deserves credit for YET ANOTHER great performance. But claiming that Roy still beats any other LHW couldn't go unchecked, I'm sorry.
Exactly. So we agree. The question now is, what did Roy at age 39 actually have left both in terms of skills, stamina, and confidence when he met Joe Calzaghe last night? I was not impressed at all with Jones' resume leading up to that fight and nor was anybody else. Those who picked him to win did so in hopes that he could turn back the clock and ALSO because they hate Calzaghe. But we have to be realistic. Calzaghe was active and a champion while Jones' last meaningful win was a lucky decision win against Tarver in 2003.
You articulated it badly. You insinuated confidence and skills are one and the same :: In actual fact they are completely different, not remotely similar, or even related. What you meant, which makes sense, is that all the skills in the world aren't much good if you don't have the confidence to put them into practice.
And using federer or tiger woods or wayne gretzky as examples. they all had abnormal levels of high skill, but admitted when they had luck on their side, they were invincible. When they weren't getting the "bounces" to go their way, they cooled off just a bit and became more human. Luck plays a major role in any sport. You can have skill, you can have confidence, but if you don't have good luck to go with those two other factors, you won't dominate.
So what? Because you are the one saying he only did it to mess with Roys head. That's the second time you contradicted yourself. My point was and is contrary to your statement.....if he was show-boating and there were a couple of times Roy didn't see it, how was that getting in his head? I don't deal in absolutes, that is why we are in disagreement.
Agreed. Roy of all people is not one to sympathize with in terms of being beaten and the other guy showboating. What goes around comes around. However, Joe looks stupid and corny as fuck when he showboats.
How did Joe show this yesterday? Joe is a very good fighter, but beating this version of Roy is hardly an accomplishment to prove one's greatness.
It's not that he did it, but how easily he did it. Aside from the 1st round, Joe fought a great fight. Even though Roy is well past his prime, he is still dangerous.
Having B-Hops and Roy Jones names on your ledger back to back with WIN next to both of them is not an accomplishment? Who else has beaten both?
I don't give Joe much credit for being Roy. Roy has a vagina and the surgeon was Antonio Tarver. If Roy had one nut, he could have beaten Joe in the firt round. He landed a fluke bullshit shot. He still couldn't get the nuts. Fuck Roy. However, Joe is a great fighter. Joe beating Roy does not improve his legacy. He did it for the money. They both did.
He could have easily quit and found a way out, so lets not go overboard. You also have to consider he doesn't want another KO for himself if he can't finish the fight right then. I think his stamina is shit now. I agree with the rest of your post.
The hell he would have! A prime Saad would have stopped Calz, and brutally. I'm not so sure Calz beats a prime Marvin Johnson either.
How do you know Roy didn't see it? Thats an opinion on your part not an actually fact. My whole point which I stated already many times was that Joe had the right to showboat. He was beating Roy and felt like clowning. Usually when one clowns it's cause he's having his way with the opponent and he 's trying to frustrate him/them even more.
Your criteria is quite simple,.. all your favourites, beat all the fighters you dont like in a fashion where even though they all went the distances with inferior scrubs at thier peak, they stop fellow good/great durable fighters quickly and spectacularly.
Joe was ducking under him and stepping to the side while Jones had his arms up to his face and had no idea he was there because he was waiting for punches but he was just standing there mugging, then took his arms down for a peekaboo and stepped to the side to get Joes head away from him and be in front of him, he was completely surprised and this happened a few times. I stated MANY times I don't mind showboating, but he looked dumb as fuck doing it, so I do not understand why you are saying he has a "right" =/ He has a right to look fucking dumb, no one said this isn't a free country. You are argueing against common sense, people showboat for entertainment, no one is saying it isn't a mind game either, like I said.....I don't deal in absolutes like you are, this argument is absurd and you are defending the way Joe looks by telling us showboating is only for mind games?
I want in on this - until recently I had little or no respect for Joe, then he destroyed Lacy, display tremendous balls against Kessler taking his best shots and kept coming back for more he also displayed great boxing smarts in beating Hopkins and Jones. Congrats Joe :hammert:
I think I heard a lot of Bernard's shot too after Calzaghe dominated him. Then I heard a lot of Pavlik is going to dominate a shot Hopkins who can't finish a fight. Then it was Hopkins is greater than sliced bread again. Then it was .... Ahhh. You guys flip flop so much , everyone in boxing is great then shot then great then shot then ... Jones lost to one of the best ever. Calzaghe made Jones look shot. Roy's camp all said he was in rare form before the fight and easily ready to fight 12. What he wasn't ready for was a guy as fast as him throwing punches from odd angles none stop. Calzaghe has dominated other fighters just as badly and many worse. He clowned Lacy when everyone thought he was the best. Was the young fighter shot too? Jones gets in the ring with someone a bit slower , who doesn't throw 100 punches a round . Who's not a slick and hard to hit ... and he'll be the greatest again. :notallthere: Like I said ... Jones can still fight with most all the best. He's beaten tarver who lost to Dawson , and I'd wager he could do it again. That fight would be a toss. Same goes for fights with many others. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed win ... all I'm saying is it's a competitive fight and possibly a win for Jones , even at this stage of his career. I'd also wager he'd give Bernard a hell of a fight and a nice easy pace that Roy could handle. I personally always put Bernard above or equal to Roy , but that fight would still be competitive and Bernard would give Roy the chance to look fast again. Calzaghe is at this stage of his career , in a different league ... The Roy that showed up still gives anyone else in the LHW division and below a competitive fight and wins most. IMO. What may be gone now after this fight , which was more humiliation than any other because Calzaghe was show boating Roy and getting the best of him ... is Roy's heart to fight again.
^^^ my first thought when reading that post was that Petre spends too much time away from boxing if he believes even a marginal percentage of his post to be true.
That idiot doesn't watch or understand boxing. He posts in General every few months to try and cover up the fact that he posts on a boxing board and does nothing but push forth his own ridiculous political agenda.
3 ad hominem attacks in a row. 1 a current mod and closet puppy killer. 1 a former mod and current fraud 1 a former owner. What a great boxing discussion board this is! Not a single actual discussion of the points made.:bears: No wonder this board does so well.
Ok, let's talk about the "points" you made: I said from jump that Pavlik would struggle early with Hopkins; yes, I got the rest of the fight wrong (as early turned into all night), but never did I say he'd stop or even drop Hopkins, or that Hopkins was shot (just extremely difficult to watch). Just as I never said that Calzaghe would do any more than what he did to Hopkins - beat him (I predicted a decision win, just like I did on Saturday night). But at no point did he dominate him, so not sure what fight you saw. Plenty of people have even argued that Hopkins should've won the fight No flip-flopping. Between Calzaghe-Jones, Jones-Tito, Calzaghe-Hopkins and Hopkins-Pavlik, the only one where I was way off, or even wrong, was Hopkins-Pavlik. There was no "made him look" about it. Roy long ago lost his ability to close the show. It didn't happen Saturday night; it happened a long time ago, and has been proven in every fight post-Tarver rematch. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Joe had an easier time with Kessler, whose beaten the fuck out of every other fighter he's faced, than he did with Hopkins. You know what? I'd STILL pick Kessler over any other current super middleweight, and would pick him to beat Hopkins as well. Ajamu? Hanshaw? Trinidad? Hardly looked like "the greatest" in any of those fights. In fact, save for the greatest of Jones apologists, most expressed disappointment in his inability/lack of desire to finish a fat, unretired Trinidad. More proof that you just haven't paid attention since 2003. He beat Tarver, and was since KTFO by him and flat out gave up on himself in the rubber match. I'm not sure what more proof you need than that fight, that the one win over Tarver is all he'll ever post. As much was said going into the Pavlik fight. Yet Bernard looked faster in that fight than in any other in the past five years. emphasis on O(pinion) It was gone a long time ago. Every fight since then has been a desperate attempt to reinvent himself. Three years ago, he was motivated by Brett Favre's will-to-win in the advanced stage of his career. Last week, Obama's Presidential bid was supposed to resurrect his once burning desire to excel. All of that's great... until the opening bell rings.
Long story short... there were few points you raised, which is why it initially went unchecked beyond citing its absurdity. Everything you posted was the same dollar-and-a-dream oh so many Jones fans had going into Saturday night. Calzaghe added another name to his resume and several million more to his bank account. It was yet another great performance in a long line of 'em, albeit against a badly faded former great. His place in history, much like Roy's, has been decided well before the opening bell rang Saturday. Jones' place in history would've greatly advanced with a win. That he moves nowhere after such a loss tells you where most believe he is today. Not sure it can be spelled out any clearer.
Petre you don't have to pretend to follow boxing to impress us. Most of us like you the way you are. ::
Well ... atleast now we can have a discussion about this ... :bears: And I said I can't believe anyone takes Pavlik over Hopkins ... Score 1 Petre. Maybe my suggestion it was dominated by Calzaghe was extreme (for effect to make a point) but I thought it was clearly a win by Calzaghe who did more damage to Bernard than anyone else I'd seen in a long time. - No contest. Same here ... Except for Hopkins Pavlik ... we'll call it a DRAW. I have to disagree ... Calzaghe was in rare form and I'll bet the moment you saw Roy KD Joe in R1 you went OH SHIT! Roy's back! :doh: Post Tarver many sang his praises with 3 distance wins touting his ability to finish fights strong ... and the layoff gave him needed recoup. So you agree Calzaghe is exception and it was an exceptional fighter that beat Roy. I believe that was my argument ... :bears: Personally ... I think Roy or Hopkins (Especially Hopkins) Takes Kessler in close fights. You can tell me how wrong I am , but that would just be your opinion against mine ... and you just picked Pavlik over Hopkins :: Don't recall saying any of them were the greatest so who are you arguing that with? They were tune ups in my book. Even Trinidad whom I though was just a blown up has been who got his ass kicked by DLH . :fightme: Not paying attention? I think you're not paying attention to human nature. Not too many fighters get KTFO back to back and come back 100% over night. That he came back and finished a tough fight with Tarver was an achievement in of itself. The layoff was what he needed to get back his head. Most hailed Roys heart for going the distance with Tarver. And there was a lot of Opinion that Roy looked faster than Calzaghe. You know what's funny here ... I'm not even a big fan of Roy. But there's not a lot of talent in the divisions right now. I made a simple statement that the confident Roy that showed up to fight Calzaghe could have beaten most ... when you look at the rest of the competition in that division (And I really made the comment just to make BigDawg feel better) . I find it funny how people need to constantly try and minimize credit where credit's due. The Jones that showed up to fight Calzaghe starches most fighters in that division. After the beating he was the recipient of vs Calzaghe ... I'll be surprised to see him fight again. But Calzaghe wasn't in there with just a shot fighter and I think it's disrespectful to the fighters to try and minimize either. There's no doubt Jones prepared hard for this fight and looked a ton better than he did in previous fights physically.
