Is the shoulder roll defense legal or not?

Shoulder roll is an old school move and its perfectly legal. Now completely turning your back, thats another thing altogether.

but the shoulder roll isnt some new deviant form of fighting invented by Floyd Mayweather

as Hegman astutely pointed out (I cant believe Im saying that) its an old time move... Ezzard Charles was great at it

I should also like to add Jersey Joe Walcott (who had many clever moves) to the discussion as well as the master technician Harold Johnson

Shoulder roll is perfectly legit and is a classic move and one that is HARD to master, that is why only a small group of fighters have been successful with it...

when it works and when a fighter can counter accurately out of it (Toney on his best nights was a classic example of the beauty of the thing) it is a classic, artistic, beautiful thing to watch

Mayweather has recently straddled the lines of legality at some moments, but not enough to where its all he does and the only reason he wins

I dont like the guy, but he is great boxer... get over it

 

agREED. :bears:

 

Seeing as you just bumped a two year old thread Kauks, the least you could do is give us the state you live in. :warning:

PS - Squalor doesn't count either.

 

Then the rules have to be changed to cater for Fraud, Toney and Hopkins I'm afraid,...it's a distinct contradiction,.... you cant 'roll' without 'turning your back' on your opponent,.. I've seen James Toney at work as you've said, and I wasn't concerntrated on the shoulder roll at that time,.. but I recall thinking how oddly bizarre this exhibition looked,.. watching Jirov grinding his cup up Toney's arse and thigh, stretching his left arm around Toney's shoulder which completely masked Toney's entire head, barely being able to merely prod him in the face with anything?,...Is that really 'beautiful' ?... well...to each thier own,..but one thing is for certain, it is ILLEGAL,.. it doesn't matter how glorified felons of the past are,..Marciano's elbow is looked upon as a 'thing of beauty' to 'old school' purists aswell,... is that the historical precedent required to impliment deliberate elbows into the contemporary game?,...

What if Wlad crunched his elbow into a hopeful American heavyweight contender's temple and knocked him out?,.... Would most American journalists, say like the self admitted 'parochial' Ron Borges, ...be respectful of Wlad's vintage use of an old school American tactic?...."What a monster!! he looked like Marciano in there!...he hurt him with a crisp left elbow and finished him off, beautiful stuff"......................:stir: Oh I dont think sooooooo... neither would the messageboards, which would be up in flames..

It doesn't matter what name you use to decorate the felony of 'turning your back' with,....For example,..if your glove is on your chin while you TURN YOUR BACK, that makes it 'the shoulder roll' instead, so suddenly it becomes legal?,.. that's like exonerating a low blow because you flap one of your arms like the 'funky chicken'? ,.....sorry, the rules are the rules,.. and there can be no argument against that. If your point was to demonstrate how the lack of rule enforcement has been historically poor,... then yes that is indeed true,.. and I alongside the 'minority' on Fightbeat, have been stressing the importance of why the rules should be enforced, and how it would improve fights aesthetically, seeing as the 'fairness' and 'honour' angle still doesn't make any sense to most forum members around here :nono:.

 

Dont you remember that post,.. "You poor bastard, are you able to breathe down there?.. I'm hundreds of miles away in the middle of ______ and there is smoke everywhere"... :nono: You forgot!,... you forgot you forgot...and you obviously never absorb anything I have to say :crying: !!

 

There isnt any point in talking about boxing with you. Everything with you is about this supposed American organized front of hypocrisy... its all horseshit... if there was such a thing, i certainly didnt get the memo inviting me to join

All I see is you constantly having a negative slant... you like Taylor solely because he 'beat" Hopkins, but Taylor is hardly an aesthetically pleasing fighter... he misses wildly with his right hand at times, almost comically so... he holds... he has had numerous very boring fights... you only like him based off of his win over Hopkins, because you hate him so

As far as Marciano's elbows, I certainly never made any claim that an elbow was a legal and legitimate boxing tactic

What some idiot like Ron Borges has to do with me or what I just posted is beyond me

You do not have to stand with your shoulders perpindicular to your opponent in boxing, as a matter of fact this is not something that I or anyone else would recommend... should it be illegal to bob and weave since you arent giving your opponent a fa9ir chance to punch you in the face?

Using your shoulder to protect the side of your face and deflect a punch is a move that has always been around the game, its not illegal and there is nothing wrong with using it as a defense

you and DOuble L can scream about it all you want, it wont make you right and it wont make the move any less LEGAL

 

I dont mean to irritate you with "the book"... I just wish you and 95% of Fightbeat, would have some respect for the rules, that's all.

It is physically impossible to shield the entire left side of your body and your ENTIRE head, without turning your back on your opponent... turning your back is simply illegal, and that's the end of that,.. you and the majority of others refuse to accept the rules, and it's a sad thing that boxing continues it's degenerative course with minimum regulation.

 

The closest thing I can find to demonstrate it is this :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-DggRQngGM&feature=channel

The only time his/her back faces his opponent is, as I said, at the point the right hand is in full extension. His opponent isn't prevented from throwing any subsequent shots because of the position he/she is in. In actual fact the way the body turns angles him TOWARDS the left hook, which is the only punch the guy could possibly throw anyway. Thus - why the dickens would you say that move properly executed should be illegal? It's a legitimate way to defend against a right hand in any environment, whether under the Marquess of Queensberry the street or anywhere else.

Floyd on the other hand would many times get his spine and brain stem mashed without the ref defending him. Hopkins main offense on the other hand is ducking down and relying on the referee to break the action and prevent the other guy from battering his brain stem from above. Both should get points of for it, IMO. 'Defend yourself at ALL times'. Anything else makes a mockery of the sport.

 

In that video link,.. which bit are you referring to mate,.. how many minutes in?.. ...

 

Hut hut, from that video you posted I saw nothing illegal whatsoever in that demonstration, I think we had two different things in mind regarding the 'rolling'.. I was thinking of the upright back-twist and fold,.. ..but in that demonstration...:: ..out of interest,.., it's all very well to go through the motions like that slowly, but I've never seen anyone counter a straight right with a left to the body like that,.. the only fighter I recall not blocking the straight right with his gloves, and instead turning his head with the punch to lessen the impact was Roberto Duran against Davey Moore,..the unorthodox crazy bastard,...:: ..THIS, is an extremely risky way to defend yourself,.. but it ofcourse has nothing to do with Hopkins Fraud and Toney.... I think we're agreed on the issue at hand of the 'back and brain stem' shoulder-roll defence,... and thats what the other posters in here are screaming is legal, when it's absolutely not.

 

The example wasn't perfect, as I said, but it contains the basic method of turning with a shot to avoid it which is basically all a properly executed shoulder roll is. When it's done properly as was by Floyd earlier in his career & was by Toney, Charles, etc it's is a great move. But yeah, I'm with with you that some of things Floyd & Hopkins do are or should be illegal for the basic reason that they aren't defending themselves - they're relying on the ref to do it for them.

 

kauki's right: a google search for "shoulder roll boxing" brings up FB as the second result

:cheer:

 

I noticed that too.::

 

Bingo.

SHoulder roll is legal.

Showing your back (NOT your side, don't get those confused) to your opponent is not.

Neither, frankly, is bending below the opponent's waist.

 

Absolutely. Hell, KID CHOCOLATE used it.

 

So you did. My apologies.

 

No it isn't. Unless they made this clause up by themselves.

"*You can't hold your opponent and hit him at the same time, or duck so low that your head is below your opponent's belt line".

http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Rules_of_Boxing

I can definitely see the sense why it would be illegal,.. as it's the same deal with the shoulder roll,.. where do you hit your opponent when he's folded over like that?...

 

exactly

and thats the 1930s we're talking about

 

No reason to call somebody stupid because they disagree. I don't see anything wrong with Floyd's shoulder roll, and I wouldn't hit him in the back of the head but I would smash his back and kidneys every time he showed it to me though.

 

Cdogg, does that mean we can embrace De La Hoya's dive,... by stating in responce to his match-fixing scandal against Hopkins... that... "JAKE LAMOTTA DID IT!!"....'old school baby'... 'corruption is a part of boxing',....?

..........and no, please dont say "What does Jake Lamotta have anything to do with this??" ... you know,..as you did in my last post,..it's an example in perfect allignment with the precedent you're trying to set by expressing vindication that the rules have been broken in the past and that justifies it in the ring today..., because obviously, it's impossible to argue in favor of breaking the rules.

Beyond the hurricane of spin, and writhing this subject seems to bring devout fans of these contemporary American fighters who possess this fundamentally illegal defensive apparatus,... the argument comes down to one, sole, irrefuteable element,.. there is a direct and distinct contradiction against the rules of boxing, which states, that you cannot turn your back on your opponent, neither can you duck your head below your opponents waist-line,...Illegal implimentation featured in part 1 and part 2 of this 'rolling' defence.

1)

2)

 

first off, I dont believe for a second that DLH took a dive against Hopkins... he may have decided to not get up, but he went down legitimately from a body shot... secondly, you are attempting to equate a legal defensive tactic (presenting a more a narrow target to your opponent -- the true shoulder roll... note I dont say completely turning your back to a guy) to someone purposely quitting in a fight in order to present a false outcome... those two things can not be reconciled... they arent in the same galaxy

Should Pernell Whitaker or Niccolino Locche have asterisks next to their victories because they moved in such a way that they always kept their opponents off balance and presented them with no square targets to punch at???

Apparantley, it should be illegal to use angles when you are flat footed???

Turning your back completely IS illegal, but rolling your shoulder to avoid a punch isn't

Again, it is laughable that you compare the shoulder roll to someone actually throwing a fight

 

:nono: Uh Cdogg,.. What does 'narrowing' mean?,... How does a fighter 'narrow' his target?.... :nono: does he blow wind out of himself like a puffer fish?.. or when you say narrow... do you mean.. he hides the 'legal hit zones' by turning his back?... (here it comes....*yawn*)--> *You cannot punch your opponent's back, or the back of his head or neck (rabbit punch), or on the kidneys (kidney punch). that's the clause in plain english...

Look at those pictured examples above??... Fraud certainly 'narrows the target' doesnt he?...LOL... all the legal punch zones are 'narrowed' alright,....to hit Fraud legally while he has that safe little 'time-out' behind the no-hit zone.. you'd have to put your fist THROUGH his spine like a sequence you'd see in the terminator sequels, ...groupies who find themselves pinned to the wall against 'the book'...say.. "ok ok.. then just hit him in the back when he does that".... um NO....that's wrong too,.. ..are we to begin unravelling all the rules to comfort a few popular American fighters??.... The referee needs to pull the initial felony up, instead of allowing the 'you foul, I foul' philosophy to extrapolate,..- if the ref lets it all ride,...it's only a matter of time before someone falls down crying, trying to get the other guy disqualified i.e the beloved Bernard Hopkins...the life long infamous abider of the 'dishonour code' will squirm his way back behind the 'honour code' for a few seconds and give the referee his familiar 'he fouling me' bitch face,....(the way he has done before).

Most people dont have to stand 'completely square' either ...e.g- the way Mike Tyson used to,.. Hopkins can tuck his chin behind his shoulder and still remain legally square... ... the PROBLEM I have... is simply with those snapshots I've taken above 1) & 2) ...it's the critical animated components of the "brilliant shoulder roll" - "defensive wizardry"...that we see Fraud frequently perform, alongside James Toney,..and occasionally Bernard Hopkins will impliment part 1,... but most of the time indulge only in the 2nd part of that illegal shit above (as do alot of other fighters sadly),..

Yes you dont have a problem with it, but it's CLEARLY contradictory to the rules that are made to keep a fair system functioning,...*this is when I type in a scenario of an 'undesireable European' exploiting the lack of rule enforcement to beat offensive-minded American fighters*,... see if the conditions weren't so well suited from 'popular American fighters' points of view,.. Id dare to say most messageboards alongside American sportwriters would finally be crying about the 'state of tactics' seeing as there is this continuous and intense whining and sobbing over petty personal complexities like the fact that most of the top heavyweights are from Europe?,..--shit like this will dominate website headlines on a daily basis,... but boxing's serious lack of enforcement of her own rules, or WORSE, the paradox of embracing the filthy tactics, will be mentioned favourably in praise of the 'ruthless, ring legend' Bernard Hopkins, ie ("he knows where the ref is at all times the cunning old dog")...:doh: could this be unprecedented in any other sport?....I see these double standards clearly,.. and it's directly connected,... one snip of the wire can stop the entire engine from functioning properly,... this is why I go off into one of those frequent 'irrelevant rants' Cdogg,..... they stem from the initial point of rule breaking....*snip* ...and the system begins to degenerate... it is getting worse... but,.. it has been under-performing for quite some time.

:nono: ... Mohammed Ali's 'chronic holding' ...'Wlad-like' holding.. was illegal,.... it also meant for eye-searing viewing,.. ..it doesnt seem to matter in retrospect because Mohammed Ali was a 'popular celebrity' and 'civil rights advocate',... he still shouldnt have been allowed to stop the fight whenever he pleased,... just like Wlad should not be allowed to do so in kind,... it is against the rules,... so no more ... 'examples of felonies' from the past,...those examples do not legalise felonies in the present day.... it only illustrates a problem shared.

 

brother Cdogg.. Kauki has some really weird thing against Floyd.. to even argue with him is pointless as his obsession with the "shoulder roll" is ridiculous

 

:atu: those pictures are disgraceful
....that is a complete joke....floyd may as well have spit out his mouth piece, turned his back, and ran to the other side of the ring

but you'd be hard pressed to find pics like that of other shoulder rolling fighters

 

:crafty: Ohhh I wouldnt bet on it,... it's actually very easy,.... afterall....I've got all 12 rounds of Toney - Jirov,... more back than you'll ever see in a history of Illuminati's signatures..

 

Im not going to bother with you... you are still on this made-up "undesirable European" "popular American" bullshit

Im not like that, and Im not going to bother discussing anything with you if you keep going in that direction

I didnt even read the remainder of your post after that. I am not going to bother trying to have a debate with a guy who has an ulterior motive

 

Ok,.. we'll agree to disagree,..I tried to explain in that extensive post above, how those 'irrelevant rants' were actually linked to the initial point of breaking the rules and how it may expansively harm the sport.

I persisted with this subject, as I find it baffling,.. that in those pictured examples...you and virtually everyone here bar a scarce few, refuse to see how it breaches the rules in 1) Turning your back on your opponent, and 2)..Ducking below your opponents waistline.... I see this two bit 'twist and fold' move performed by the '3 great defensive wizards' of boxing again and again, round after round,.. and due to the fact that there is a contradictory clash between these three boxers (who are a lovely bunch of moral characters), up against the official rules of boxing, ie the health and integrity of the sport,........ which 'interests' do the majority choose?...
...so feel free to use that crying emoticon for me all that you wish, it's fitting enough...I do find it sad,.. from a philosophical point of view especially.

 

I think everyone can agree those moves are illegal and Floyd should have been deducted points. Does anyone disagree? And conversely, you seem to agree with the legality of a legit shoulder roll. So lets all stop thu fussin' and thu fightin'!

 

In that video you provided,.. is the 'legal' shoulder roll featured at all?... because, Im still scratching my head,.. I saw no illegal backtwisting in that demonstration whatsoever, nothing that I was referring to, nor anything that resembled my understanding of what the 'shoulder roll' is supposed to be (obviously as you can see in those snapshots).. That demonstration reminded me of Duran against Moore,.. twisting his neck to lessen the impact of the punch,..the insane nutter,... Fraud, Hopkins and Toney are nowhere to be seen in that video mate,....

edit - Oh and the majority,...still dont seem to be able to bring themselves to admit that my pictured examples above,..are illegal. ^...

 

looks that way, bro

Im not a fan of Floyd, and I can see where sometimes he turns the shoulder roll into an outright turning of the back... but to insinuate that he ALWAYS does that or that the true shoulder roll is illegal is just dumb to me