Thrilla in Manila Documentary on HBO

Just finished watching this and it was good. A few of my observations:

1) Hopefully, children on this very forum will quit saying that Joe Frazier "quit" in this fight

2) Ferdie Pacheco remains one of the biggest know-nothing jackasses that has ever existed

3) Joe Frazier's hatred of Ali, while understandable in some respects, has become sadistic and rather sad

4) The extraordinary courage of both of these men in the ring remains simply jaw-dropping no matter how many times you see the fight

5) It was refreshing to see more of Joe Frazier's side of things told for once

6) Frazier deserves far more tribute and reverance than he is currently treated to, as his exceedingly modest existence clearly shows

7) While Ali biographer Thomas Hauser is clearly enamored of his subject, he has exhibited the traits of a truly excellent biographer in so far as he is quick to criticize Ali where it is warranted, and he did so here

HBO generally makes excellent sports documentaries and this one is no exception and the contributions of people like Marvis Frazier, the sharply dressed George Benton and Hauser among others were crucial and often poignant.

 

Was there Any Footage of them that U'd NEVER Seen B 4???...


REED:hammert:

 

Nothing extraordinary, really

but a few stories here and there from guys like Benton and Marvis that I hadnt heard before

also Joe watched the fight for the first time ever, apparently and that was very interesting and emotional to watch, seeing him there reliving it

 

Futch said he stopped the fight because he seen 8 fighters die in the ring.

Also I like how Pac is training for Hatton. Pac will win this fight easily.

 

This fight as Epic as it was, has been beaten to death already.

Eddie IMO made a mistake stopping the fight as Ali was in just as bad shape as Joe was, perhaps even worse stamina wise as he perhaps could not have arisen from his stool going into the 15th.

It is without a doubt The Most Brutal Heavyweight Championship Fight Ever.

 

it is not a big deal but i am pretty sure HBO didn't make this one....it was shown in the UK a while ago, it doesn't make sense that it has only just been broadcast by HBO if they made it

 

Given all we know about Ali, I find it extremely hard to believe that especially against Joe, that he would not have got up for that last round.

 

Shut up.

 

I can't stand Pacheco.

Worst boxing commentator ever on the big 2 cable networks.

He actually claimed in his book that boxing became more humane as a result of his presence in the sport.

 

I hate Pacheco with a passion, he is a self-important blowhard who used Ali's celebrity to become famous

He knows NOTHING about boxing

 

As AdamW said, this was broadcast in the UK a while back, and I enjoyed very much watching things from Joe's perspective.

The man thing I took from it was the real hatred of Ali that Joe has, even now. He despises him and there is no doubt that he takes considerable pride in what Ali has become physically and his supposed part in that. His answerphone message is deliciously sadistic.

In truth, and trying to be as neutral as you can where Ali is concerned, it is difficult to blame Joe. Frazier supported Ali when all and sundry deserted him, gave him cash and publicity and then gave him a shot at the title Ali had taken away from him. In return, Ali turned Joe into a hate figure and a white man. It is no wonder the hatred he holds for Ali and his ability and willingness to fight almost to the death in Manilla comes as equally unsurprising. Joe would have happily died in the ring that night, so long as he took Ali with him. That's a lot of hate. An awful lot.

MTF

 

I downloaded it last night. Will probably watch it in the next couple of days.

 

I liked it. Any point I would have has already been touched in this thread.

 

Agree, except Balboa Creed I and 2 were more brutal.

 

Frazier's kids were affected too at school because of Ali's remarks.

 

-Pacheko's dickery can't be overstated.

-This isn't the first time that the condition of Ali going into the 15th round has been brought up, but honestly, make no mistake that he likely (as no speculation is 100%) gets up to fight round 15 if he sees Frazier getting up. That's just the pattern that had been set for these two. The other situation that we've seen match this IMHO was Morales and Barrera.

No matter what point the pair of men were in their careers, they would always continue to fight as long as they were alive.

 

:bears:

 

You saw him telling Angie to cut 'em off after the 14th.

As for Doc Ferdie: Man, is he getting old..he cannot even sit erect anymore, it looks as if he has had a stroke the way he was leaning over to his right.

I agree that he got testy with the interviewer when he asked him "Are you even in boxing?" after the young man asked him a simple question if the thought Manila was a strange place to stage a heavyweight title fight.

But: I met Doc in at the Thomas Hearns-Vrgil Hill fight in Vegas and hung out with him and found him to be a complete gentleman, at least he was towards me.

Yes, he is a bit full of himself but he was in show business.

One thing you folks may not know about him: He ran a clinic in Miami where he treated legions of poor Latinos FOR FREE!!

He used a portion of his earnings by working with Ali to give back to the Latin community in Miami..and did not accept a dime.

Think about that fact before you knock the man, ok?

Karl

 

Tell him about it.

 

Yeah, we've all heard that. He said the same in the Liston fight.
Dundee ignored him. Do you honestly think that Ali would not have got up for that final round? Of course we'll never know but I'm IMO there was no way, especially considering the round Ali had previously that he wasn't getting off that stool.

 

Exactly... Dundee would have pepped him up and sent him back out and he would've went, simple as that

The courage of both fighters can not be overemphasized

 

Do you have an opinion about anyone you havent met?

 

:laughing:

 

Personally...I think Frazier is carrying this hate far longer than is sensible or necessary. And I think Frazier's revelling in Ali's current condition is just plain wrong. Sure...Ali said some hurtful things...but he also made Frazier's career a much bigger deal in the process. The entire legend of Frazier is built on his rivalry with Ali. Beating Ali legitimized Frazier as heavyweight champ, earned him a LOT of money and made him into a legendary figure in heavyweight history...none of which would have happened if Ali never fought him. Do you think anyone would be talking about Frazier these days if he had never fought Ali?

Think about how Frazier's career would have unfolded and how it would be viewed now if Ali was never allowed to return to boxing.

Frazier now becomes the paper champion who won the "title" that was unjustly stolen from Ali. He beat some good fighters and some not-so-good fighters in title defenses, with Bonavena, Quarry and Ellis being the best of the bunch, but then gets squashed by Foreman in 1972 and then again in a rematch 6 months to a year later.

After the Foreman losses...which don't earn him anywhere close to the money he made for fighting Ali...Frazier is out of the title picture (how many times do we really need to see Foreman bouncing him up and down off the canvas like a basketball??) despite being better than any heavyweight than Foreman (and with no Ali around, Foreman's reign most likely lasts a lot longer), and ends up fighting far longer than he needs to (because he has not made all that money with Ali) and most likely ends his career as a name opponent....first struggling to wins over fighters he would have handled much more easily in his prime and then taking progressively worse beatings and eventually becomes a notch on the belt of Larry Holmes and then probably Gerry Cooney (in much the same manner as Lyle and Norton) if he continues after losing to Holmes.

And he never, ever (to this day) stops having to hear how he was never the real champ because he didn't beat Ali for his title.

 

I agree that it's not very sensible or necessary; I simply think that it is understandable. Some of what Ali said to Joe was HORRIBLE and most of it completely untrue. He turned black Americans against Joe despite the fact that Joe was a black American himself. Joe's kids took shit at school and in the streets because people bought the 'Uncle Tom' crap Ali propogated. Ali explained much of it away as publicity seeking, but Ali-Frazier needed NO publicity- from the second it was announced it was worldwide, mainstream news. It was Ali being Ali- being hugely confident and playing mind games. If he did it today, he'd be lampooned (just as he was after the Terrell beating).

And for all that Frazier 'piggybacked' all the way through Ali, you only have to look at him now to see that, in truth, no-one much is really talking about Frazier. He lives in a shack. He isn't exactly in the best of health. If he still has money (and he should have), the documentary doesn't exactly show him utilising it. Most casual boxing fans born in the past twenty years or so are unlikely to know that Ali lost to Frazier in their first match. Even many boxing enthusiasts spend much of their time talking about how he 'bottled' the fifteenth in Manilla or spend plenty of time in mythical matchups outlining how just about every top HW in history beats Frazier by hitting him hard with uppercuts (ala Foreman). The fact that Frazrier beat Ali once and almost beat him to death in the third fight is perennially overlooked.

I'm not ragging on Ali. Trust me, I'm a certified Ali fan (with books and pictures to boot). It's just that the way he spoke to, and of, Joe at times was pretty fucked up. If I were Frazier, I'd probably still be pissed too.

MTF

 

Frazier also had to hear "Uncle Tom" shit from douche bags like Bryant Gumbel.

 

Yeah, sure.

You make a mean comment about Doc, I tell you to tell him about it, and you start typing smack here.