Didn't Hopkins duck a lot of top competition during his reign as middle-weight?

::

 

Looking at Tony Danza's record as a pro fighter, it appears he was a classic puncher... 9-3 (9)

All of his victories were KOs no later than the third round

and two of his 3 losses were 1st round KOs

This makes him a more accomplished fighter than Mickey Rourke and Too Tall Jones, LOL

 

Something Martin failed to do.

 

So now the fightbeat fags want me dead? Geeze. Is this a discussion board or just one big band-wagon with no room for dissent?

You guys (and you know who you are) spend so much time yucking it up like a bunch of school girls that I think it's completely escaped you that this place is intended as a forum in which to discuss and debate boxing and boxers.

Why don't you guys take your faggot talk to TAA and have your homo-erotic exchanges there.

 

Hopkins was at that time promoted by Butch Lewis. Butch and Don King didn't get along. Hops was treated like crap in his first "draw" with Segundo Mercado, further polarizing Lewis and King. King had Keith Holmes, William Joppy, Nigel Benn, Eubank, McClellan, Norris, Julian Jackson, and Quincy Taylor and a few others under lock and key---only fighting each other.

So Bernard was basically ignored by King until King wanted Tito to unify the world middleweight title (King previously collected chunks of the other two middleweight titlefight purses throughout the 80s and 90s). He lined up Keith Holmes for Hopkins and threw Joppy to the wolves. Hops beat Holmes, and King expected Tito to annhilate Hopkins (supposedly the Sugar Ray Robinson memorial trophy that was supposed to be given to the winner ALREADY had Tito's name engraved on it).

Hops upset the apple cart, and it was only then that he got the option of fighting top opponents. That's the same reason that James Toney and Roy Jones didn't fight most of those guys I mentioned in the first paragraph. Toney and Jones didn't want to be stuck in longterm contract with Don King either. King reportedly had tough contracts and he was sued repeatedly. One of his stipulations was that a fighter would have to accept Don's son, Carl, as the fighter's manager---even if the fighter already had an advisor.

 

A prime Hopkins gets beat by Kessler. When was the prime Hopkins, btw?

 

Jeez...::

You have a WAY better memory than me, Joe. What I typed still goes, but you filled in some earlier stuff quite nicely. :bears:

 

There's a reason he was known as Tough Tony Danza. The guy had power.

 

Jackson had gotten crunched by Quincy Taylor on a Tyson undercard, I think. Taylor later got crunched by Holmes on a Tyson undercard (I can't remember which one). Holmes was promoted by King and King wasn't interested in unifying when he could have 4 or 5 "world" title fights on one card...like Taylor vs. Holmes...which later became Holmes-Taylor since Holmes stopped him.

Holmes held his belt and defended it against similar calibre guys who Joppy defended against (Anybody remember Joppy vs. Duran). The guys they defended against were promoted by King as well. Hopkins was not.

 

Thanks, Buddy!

It gives me a headache when folks throw around "ducked" without really knowing what actually went on at the time. And if the person wasn't a fan duing the time he is writing about, it's not all that hard to do a little research before making so and so ducked so and so statements.

Your info was really good, too. It explains what went on during Hopkins' title reign in the 90's. Once a figther got on the wrong side of Don King in a division he controlled, it was often hard to get quality fights made.

 

No problemo. You remembered some stuff I had forgotten, but I haven't thought about that era much over the last 15 years. Hops still had the best resume of all three titlists over that reign. He got his belt after Roy moved up, and he didn't fight guys that were absolute crap. He had quality wins.

Granted Steve Frank was crap, but Joe Lipsey was an undefeated powerpuncher and Bernard DESTROYED him. Glen Johnson got stopped as well by Hops. John David Jackson was worldclass. Andrew Council was stopped (an Al Bernstein ESPN favorite), Antwun Echols was a feared powerpuncher, Syd Vanderpool was a much bigger natural supermiddleweight, and then Hopkins finally got Holmes. Hops had some quality wins against those guys.

Look at Joppy's title reign: lost to Julio Cesar Green, scraped by Green in the rematch, Roberto Duran (age 47), Napoleon Pitt, and a host of nobodies we never heard from again except for Hassine Cherifi...and then Trinidad turned Joppy into a highlight reel.

Holmes' reign: Richie Woodhall, a good first test. Next up, Paul Vaden---a 154lb powderpuff who got humiliated against Terry Norris (Vaden was never the same), Hassine BEAT Holmes, then Holmes got his title back and fought a rematch with Andrew Council, who he had already beaten. Robert McCracken was a good test for Holmes though.

In fact, I think Holmes' record is better than Joppy's, but Holmes was 6ft2 and he was a good puncher. Joppy was smaller and didn't have the range or power. Hopkins beat both of them and Trinidad. That, along with Hopkins' good title defense record, shows that Hopkins fought the people he was given opportunities against...when he finally got them, that is.

 

hONESTLY, I have recommended several times in the mod forum to the real mods that Double L be banned for "content." I have tried telling him the truth, that he is a worthless idiot who should consider suicide so I will try and help him.


It is not fair to say Hopkins ducked anyone at Middleweight. He didn't at least that I a aware of. What is true is he dominated a piss poor division and the times he allegedly stepped up, he fought former Welterweights. It is not arguable that he ducked people, but IMo neither is saying he is an atg based on his piss poor resume at 160. I am a recovered Hopkins fan and let me tell you it was the hardest argument to make on this message board that is comp didn't suck.

What's funny is his level of comp at 160 just shows the American bias.

SVEN Ottke and Joe Calzaghe were said to toil in obscurity fighting "bums" when honestly if you remove the big nae Welters he fought his resume is on par with theirs.

Also, I think it is debatable that Hopkins is an ATG.His best wins of legitimate Middleweight or above fighters was either the ordinary Tarver or the Extraordinary ordinary Pavlik (who in 2 years time will not be looked at as a big win)

Hopkins career is nearly over or is over and this is the unvarnished truth. His record in fights with guys who were legit middles or more is pretty ordinary.
He lost to Jermain Taylor TWO FCKING TIMES-FACT.
He lost Joe Calzaghe pretty clearly to most observers,nearly all.
He lost to Roy in a one sided fashion.
He dominated Antonio Tarver
He stunk out a points victory over Winky Wright(at 170 for a guy who made a name at 154)
He dominated Pavlik (A middleweight at 170)
He fought evenly and then stopped DLH(at 160 and not a middleweight)
He fought Tito (A robot with loaded gloves and no balance who had a fraudulent reign at 147)


I am not saying Bhop was a fraud or a bum, but I think it is an objectively true statement that when Bernard fought guys who were his natural size and strength and had a modicum of skill; he mostly lost. That is a fact.

 

i think we see eye to eye on this topic. why do you want me banned or for me to kill myself? why take anything i say personally?

 

Who are the top fighters that Hopkins ducked?

 

No, I made a valid point which was loosely related to yours because I feel sorry for you. Don't take my wanted your death personally. I certainly wouldn't want to harm you. When I say I wish that you didn't exist I say it only because I am a Eugeniscist and I wish the best for our race. Don't make this about you. It is about the betterment of the world.

Your friend,

Ike

 

C'mon Double. Don't duck my question!

 

The heft of Hopkins middleweight reign is assailable. And as someone else already said, the same can be said for his recent record against guys his own size. Still, dominating Tarver and, Pavlik, at his age, were tremendous. Those are his absolute best wins, imo, and the ones which are the surest indicators (beyond the losses) of just how great he really is. It's the same standard I apply to someone like Shane. You judge someone by the quality of his prime and past it. The guy has a bunch of L's in his ledger, but beating prime DLH in 00 and Margarito in 09 (that's almost ten years apart) speak more to me than the losses in-between.

 

Well I stand corrected regarding the opponents available to him at 160, but I still maintain that his resume at 160 is pretty thin and that given his size, he could've dealt with that situation the way most great fighters do, by moving up in weight to where there is real competition.

As it turned out, he ultimately did. And had some success, especially against Tarver.

 

Good talk.

 

People should remember that legacy is really important to Bernard. He stayed at middleweight because many of the top guys at supermiddle were also beholden to Don King, and the lightheavies as well (Virgil Hill and Fabrice Tiozzo), barring guys like Henry Maske, Graciano Rocchigiani, and Sven Ottke who were Universum-promoted fighters.

Hops knew that without a belt, he'd be fighting on ESPN for $5,000 and the top guys would deem him too much risk for too little reward. Even with the title belt, he didn't have a lot of bargaining power until Don King wanted to unify the belts while thinking he was throwing Bernard to the wolves.

Bernard didn't have much in the way of options unless he signed with King, who had a monopoly on Jr. Middle, Middle, and Super Middle for much of the 80s and 90s.

 

Therefore, he should have signed with King and not fought no one for a decade.

 

Well said Free,.. and what is worse, is that this is the result of his career, during a reign where the rules have never been enforced, and the scoring criteria has never properly been adhered to,.. which is the two most reliant and influential fundaments for Hopkins career scheme.

I also cant help but feel sheer disbelief when Hopkins groupies place somebody like 'De La Hoya' ..on the shortlist of his greatest victories,.. ..What kind've shocking joke is that for a 6"3 musclebound guargantuan light heavyweight?... Oscar De La Hoya?.. ..I think maybe this outrageous immunity is due to the fact that the revolting monster would hunch up, and back up in a defensive posture at all times against much smaller opposition,.. aiding the 'illusion' of his mass, seeing as it is usually the larger fighter coming forward or atleast standing his ground frequently,...but not our 'special' Hopkins,..he was such a coward,.. that he only used that physical advantage during enforced clinching positions where he could operate safely, while there, he'd take the liberty to mash testicles, smack the blindside, rabbit punch, and snake his head around his opponents jaw and brow...these familiar felonies, proceeded his notorious back peddling and general failure to engage, in essence taking advantage of the smaller man trying to make the fight,..and then vicing his opponent behind a mutated outstreched potshot fired from the 'fringe' of his rapid reversal, performed with his head down, to avoid the HORROR of any counter shots...thus, without enforcement of the rules,.. you could only score THAT particular shot, hit or miss, between the tiny clap of intermittent action,... this is the kind've fight Hopkins could get away with conducting,..time,..and time....again,... but it's proudly labelled as "masterful".. wtf?... a degenerative precedent set. I think 'undiagnosed cancer' might be more suitable as to what Hopkins has been, and always will be to boxing.

 

:laughing:

 

For someone who's usually sharp, you're off-form with that comment. King tried to fuck him twice with the Segundo Mercado fight even though Hopkins was the mandatory #1 for the vacant belt. If someone tried to fuck you over twice, would you say, "Gee, you know what! I think I'll sign my promotional rights over to him now!"

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People in this thread act like Hopkins didn't appear on the scene until 1995.

Hopkins was the IBF's number-one middleweight contender in the summer of 1993. He was actually rated above Roy Jones when they fought for the vacant IBF belt that year. And he was ranked by the IBF for a good year before that.

Also, the early to mid 90s middleweight/super middleweight divisions were loaded with talent.

There was James Toney, Roy Jones, Reggie Johnson, Steve Collins, Michael Nunn, Chris Eubank, Nigel Benn, Jorge Castro, Julian Jackson, Gerald McClellan, Frankie Liles, Tim Littles, Lonnie Bradley, Lamar Parks, etc.

And the only person from his era that he managed to fight was Roy Jones, who easily outpointed Hopkins? C'mon.

Considering Hopkins turned pro at light heavy and moved back up to light heavy at the end of his career, there was certainly no reason at all that he couldn't have moved around and faced more of those guys. It's not like he was a "natural" middleweight.

And even if he didn't want to go up, Gerald McClellan, Reggie Johnson, Steve Collins, Jorge Castro and Julian Jackson all held middleweight belts between the time Hopkins was a top contender in the division and the moment he actually won a title. But Hopkins didn't go after them.

Instead, Hopkins fought for the vacant IBF title THREE times before he actually won it. (He never fought and beat a reigning champ until he took on Keith Holmes in the HBO Tournament.) And he made no effort to go up to 168 while all those names were there, even though he clearly could have made the weight.

And back then Hopkins was promoted by Butch Lewis, who had no qualms about co-promoting with Don King. They co-promoted a lot of shows back then.

Once he lost to Jones, Hopkins seemed content to wait for everyone to leave and not go out of his way to fight anyone who might trouble him.

 

Hopkins looked bad vs Allen

 

Good post.

Hopkins often weighed in below 160 throughout his career. Just because he began his career doesn't mean he should have gone up in weight. For whatever reason, Hopkins made 160 easily. Just because we are in a stretch where everyone is moving up in weight and having success, that isn't how it's always been.

That said, you pointed out a lot of opponents that should be on Hopkins' resume, but aren't. It's why I always thought he was overrated. When he finally took some chances, he proved me wrong, but your point is legit.

 

Are you kidding me? King and Butch Lewis did NOT get along back then. When Hopkins went to fight for the vacant title against Mercado (Mercado was promoted by King then), King made sure the fight was held in Mercado's hometown of Quito, Ecuador. Hopkins got shitty quarters and a gym where dogs were literally walking in and shitting on the floor. On top of that, Hopkins was brought in late and he didn't have time to acclimate to the elevation...which was way higher than, say, The Mile High City.

After that, Hopkins and Lewis HATED King because they felt he did everything in his power to sabotage Bernard.

 

Now I agree with you on that point.. I always felt he should have moved up a long time ago looking for better competition at 168 or even 175.. He stayed a middleweight too long for my taste but it ended up working out for him..

 

Dubble is right about Hopkins.

I have mad respect for him...I do,..but Bernard was content to stay at 160 fighting alot of mediocre middleweight competition, and faded welters that moved up.

He beat Tito, Winky, Pavlik and Tarver that were worth a fuck. But that has been since he was older.

When he was younger....he didn't go after the most competitve fights I don't think.


That's it.