Is boxing still dead or is this a renaissance?

But that's just It, Having the "Big 4" has Obviously HURT Boxing...Back in the "Good Ol' Days", we had the WBA & WBC...That was PLENTY...The IBF Surfaced & MUDDIED the Picture a Bit & By the Time the WBOgus Came About, MOST Mainstream Fans STOPPED Trying to Keep Up w/who the REAL Champions were...

Because of the "Big 4", we've Now Got IBU's, IBO's, WBU's, WBZ's, etc...But Even IGNORING that, 4 "Champions" PER Division is OXYMORONIC...2 Sanctioning Bodies Per Division was CREDIBLE...3 Per was SOMEWHAT Credible...4 Per ISN'T Credible @ All, & When U Factor in that SOMETIMES, the WBOgus "Champion" is THE BEST Fighter in the Division, it MINIMIZES the Older, More "Credible" Titles that Much Fuuuuurther...

Honestly, REED Sees NOfuckingWAY that the UFC "Championship" Model CAN Crumble...1 Champ PER Division is the Way it's SUPPOSED to B...

REED:hammert:

 

The IBF has been around since 1983. The WBO since the late 80's. I hate how the IBF gets treated like it is so much more entrenched in boxing's history. Pluse the IBF has had a bribery scandal way worse than anything alleged at the WBO. It goes to show you what the heavyweight championship can be worth...

2 is credible, 3 is somewhat credible, 4 is not credible. What? 4 is credible because it is. Right now, all 4 sanctioning bodies have fighters who are the 'best' in their respective divisions.

The UFC model works because the majority of the fans are not sophisticated. They know that Fedor is the best heavy, but after that the vast majority will say the UFC has the best fighter in every weight class. Of course, the UFC doesn't even have fighters for every weight class.

The UFC model will crumble when it isn't so easy to determine who has the best champions. Pride held this role until anti-trust was ignored and the UFC ate them up. Eventually, mma will become a 2-tiered format, and then 3. But, they need the pool of fighters to grow and they need a sanctioning body or other competitor of UFC to improve.

 

4 Sanctioning bodies is not credible, it's laughable. Unless you're a hardcore boxing fan, the kind that buys the magazines, orders every PPV, follows all the websites, etc, chances are you have no idea who is champion of what sanctioning body. They may know who the champs are, but whether they're WBC, WBA, IBF or WBO, they probably have no clue.

I have no idea why anyone would think having 4 champions are each weight class is better than having 1. But it goes even deeper than that. It's the fact that these sanctioning bodies are criminal. Can anyone defend Sanctioning Fees?

I know that the Sanctioning Bodies aren't going anywhere, but if they did disappear, it would be a great day for boxing and boxing fans.

TFK

 

If Only Slightly, the IBF is STILL OLDER...More Importantly, Larry Holmes Helped to IMMEDIATELY Add Credibility to the IBF by Taking On their Heavyweight Title Right Out of the Gate...By Comparison, the WBOgus was Pretty Much an AFTERTHOUGHT UNTIL Prince Naseem Hamed Won & DEFENDED it Double Digit Times...

The IBF is RIGHTFULLY more Credible, Cherished & Storied than the WBOgus...

If 4 "Champions" Per Division was a Credible Scenario we WOULDN'T B Having this Discussion...Again, the Entire Premise is OXYMORONIC @ Best...So U HONESTLY Think UFC Fans will WELCOME the Idea of MORE Belts per Weight Class as they Become MORE Sophisticated???::...That Makes NO Sense Whatsoever, Dude...Sophisticated BOXING Fans have been BITCHING about the Proliferation of Belts Since the IBF Came about...So Why would the UFC Fans B Any Different???...

The UFC ALREADY has as DEATHGRIP on the MMA Industry...EVERY Fighter Hopes to Fight there, Eventually (INCLUDING Fedor, who can Afford to NOT Fight There, Luckily)....The UFC is the McDonald's, the Microsoft, the AT & T, the Xerox of the MMA Industry...ANY Would Be Competitors will PALE by Comparison...As Such, REED Sees NO Other MMA Companies SERIOUSLY Threatening UFC's 1-Tier Format...



REED:hammert:

 

4 is better because fighters don't get shut out. It's not that hard to figure out. If fighters are getting shut out in mma it's not as obvious because no one knows who they are.

Sanctioning fees are the reason sanctioning bodies are legit. They provide a means for the sanctioning body to act in the best interest of themselves/boxing by being self-sufficient and not having to cater to the whims of the majority, the fans, the writers, or anything other than what they deem is right. In theory, and I would say often in practice, the sanctioning bodies provide the fairest route to a title shot. Sure, they are not perfect, but how do you get a title shot in the XXX? Win a regional belt, get ranked, keep winning, and eventually you will get a shot. No exceptions.

 

The IBF WAS more credible..., not IS.

4 sanctioning bodies IS a credible scenario which is why we are discussing 4 and not 5, 6 or 3.

I don't give a shit what the "UFC" fans want, it's what they will get as their sport matures and as the fan base matures. I know there are die-hard mma guys as hard core as any boxing fan, but these are the guys who already don't limit themselves to the UFC pool when discussing mma fighters.

It doesn't matter what the UFC 'wants'; it will happen. They can't buy out every challenger, nor can they stop the sport from growing beyond their walls forever. The UFC admits they are a brand. When fighters are able to say 'fuck off' to the UFC, they will. We all know that the UFC rapes the living piss out of their fighters. That model can't live all that much longer. Maybe 1 year, maybe 5, but I would guess it will not see 10 and probably closer to 5 before things get officially muddled.

 

Man, if that ain't the biggest bunch of crap I've ever read on this board, I don't know what is.


TFK

 

Come on, respond.

How do you get a title shot in the UFC? Become a UFC slave. You actually think that is more legit than sanctioning fees?

 

I thought this forum's debating skills were dead, but this thread has proved me wrong. :cheer: good stuff all around.

 

The ONLY way a sanctioning body helps a fighter is through the purse bidding process.

That shits on the UFC's pay plan for sure.

Sanctioning bodies should not be getting the high percentage of fighter's purses that they are doing. Jose Sulaiman should not be making 500K or more a year. That's blantant stealing. The sanctioning bodies are supposed to be non-profit and they claim that on their taxes, but their business methods are far from it.

Has any sanctioning body tried to lobby the NCAA or high school systems or even helped out amateur boxing in any way? Hell no. If and when they do, they will make a publicity stunt out of it.

 

4 Sanctioning Bodies R COUNTER Productive, Dude...They're LESSENING the Value of Each Other, by Sheer #'s...Can U DENY that the Mere Idea of 4 "World Champions" is OXYMORONIC @ BEST???...It ISN'T a Credible Scenario AT ALL, Especially when U Consider that Only on the RAREST of Occasions do we Get Unification to the Point of Having UNDISPUTED Champions...

So YOU Think that MMA Fans will EMBRACE a Multi-Tiered System, as they Become More "Sophisticated"???...That Makes as LITTLE Sense as Expecting UFC Fans to Embrace it Did::...UFC DOESN'T have to Buy Out Every Organization, they have MORE CREDIBLE Fighters than ANY Other Organization & MORE STABILITY...

Sure, UFC is a "Brand", but it's THE Most POWERFUL "Brand" in it's Industry, by SEVERAL Miles...Any Upstart Organizations will B as "Competitive" w/the UFC as a Little League Baseball Team is w/the New York Yankees....



REED:hammert:

 

BULLSHIT:shit:...

BECAUSE of Sanctioning Fees, Fighter Purses R MILKED SEVERAL Times Over in the Form of "Eliminators", "Interim Titles", "Super Titles" & Other BOGUS Means...& REED WON'T Even Get Into How DIFFICULT the Sanctioning Bodies Make it for UNIFIED Champions to KEEP their Belts....

Have U NOT Heard How Don King Basically CONTROLLED the WBC HIMSELF???...King was the Puppet Master, Jose Sulaiman was Pinocchio & King's Guys CONSISTENTLY Got PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT as a Result....If Guys DIDN'T Sign their LIVES AWAY to Don King, there was ZERO Chance of them Getting WBC Title Shots OR Rankings...Or How about the Way Universum CONTROLLED the WBOgus During their Early Days????...."Fairest Route to a Title Shot" REED"s ASS:shit:....

In MOST Cases, Fans & Writers DON'T have Agenda's, yet Sanctioning Bodies ALWAYS DO....



REED:shit:

 

Who's talking about the UFC? We're talking about boxing.

The sanctioning fees are nothing more than extortion. Fighters and promotors pay for rankings. Deserving fighters get passed over for title shots. Bribery is common. Everyone from Bob Arum to Bert Sugar to Larry Merchant have railed on against the sanctioning bodies and their criminal activities.

Not to mention the fact that there are no champions, rather belt holders. Being a quarter of a champion is meaningless to me. All the titles are diluted by the mere existance of 4 major sanctioning bodies. Fights aren't made because of the sanctioning bodies, or rankings are lost for fighting for another Alphabet Soup belt.

To defend multiple sanctioning bodies? That's ridiculous.


TFK

 

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone in the world would defend the ridiculous amount of sanctioning bodies hanging around and cofusing the shit out of everyone. It's ridiculous- how can there possibly be 'four' world champions in one world? :shit:

The most credble title right now is 'The Ring' title IMHO. The rest have become so diluted that they barely even matter.

MTF

 

:bears:

I've argued with Mike about the sanctioning bodies years ago and he still doesn't get it.

 

More belts = more bullshit. He makes absolutely no sense.

 

You guys realize that you're arguing with someone who feels that Pacquiao fought MAB at 126 rather than a paper champion at the expense of his legacy, right?

 

Exactly...

This Pap Smear PURPOSELY Embraces THE MOST Ridiculous of Premises, just to DIFFERENTIATE Himself from the Pack...REED has Been Noticing that BULLSHIT Facade for MONTHS Now...

Tis' Better to B an ANONYMOUS Genuis than to B EASILY RECOGNIZED for IDIOCY...Fucking HEY BOY....



REED:shit:

 

That's the dumbest shit I ever read

 

Its deader than it has ever been in history... this is WITHOUT QUESTION true in the United States

 

the way i look at it, sanctioning bodies serve a useful role only in that they counter-balance the power wielded by promoters.

if there were promoters and no sanctioning bodies, the sport would be worse off than it is. likewise, if there were sanctioning bodies and no promoters, the sport would be equally bad off.

but that's not to say that in any way the involvement of sanctioning bodies, such as they are, is a good thing. rather, it's a necessary evil given that promoters run part of the show.

so basically, any idea about how to improve the sport must include not only the removal of sanctioning bodies (and all of their belts), but also of promoters.

if sanctioning bodies were removed without the removal of promoters, it would seriously fck shit up.

 

Sanctioning bodies help fighters is far more ways than just the bidding process. The belts they have increase a fighter's value, including their regional belts.

Sulaiman runs an organization known throughout the world and has for many years. If he is making $500k, he is arguably undercompensated. That the organization is non-profit is different and makes sense because being for-profit creates a conflict of interest--i.e. The Ring belt.

I don't know what the sanctioning bodies have done regarding amateur boxing. There is an amateur boxing association and I would assume that is their province.

 

Let's not pretend the sanctioning bodies don't abuse their post, though. They certainly take advantage of fighters and make them pay a price for what in many instances amounts to nothing.

 

I agree they lessen the value of each other, but there is a net gain to the sport, imo.

Until Mother Earth crowns a champion, I understand like everyone else that when someone is a "world" champion in most sports, it doesn't mean they are the best in the world. Track and field would be an obvious exception because the method of determining who is the best is purely objective. So it doesn't matter if it is oxymoronic or not.

I don't think mma fans will embrace anything, but they will have to deal with it. The single crown approach is easier for everyone. It just isn't as good for the fighters.

The fact is, when Don King and other promoters did what the UFC does, the US government got involved and prevented them from tying down fighters long term.

 

The UFC model is the obvious counterpart.

Fighters and promoters have paid for rankings and perhaps still do. But they are not supposed to. And even if they do, in most cases it will be because the fighter is a deserving challenger. Why do you think someone would pay for a title shot for a no-hoper? Even if this stuff does happen, and it probably does to some extent, it only proves my point that multiple organizations assure that deserving fighters do not get shut out completely. If the WBX and the WBZ shut out Boxer, there are always 2 other options.

Oh shit...Bob Arum, Bert Sugar and Larry Merchant!! Well, if that isn't an honorable contingent.

It may be meaningless to you, but it isn't to fans in general. Sanctioning bodies create wealth for fighters. Plain and simple.

 

I agree that we can surely find examples of all 4 sanctioning bodies doing wrong and sometimes to the detriment of fighters.

 

Please resort to name calling when your dumbass can't keep up.

Oh, it's already happened.

 

Why? You don't think fighters are getting shut out in mma because there is only one 'champion'? There was a time not so long ago when Japanese fighters were considered at or near the top of some weight classes. Ever since UFC bought Pride, Japanese fighters have been erased from the picture. And I say this as a casual fan, the fact that big fans will name off Japanese fighters who are great only proves my point that they are getting shut out of the UFC.

 

also, while sanctioning bodies purport to help fighters by way of "mandatory challengers," it remains the case that many fighters, good fighters, don't ever get a title shot until they sign with a top promoter.

likewise, mandatory spots are given out more times than not to undeserving challengers who have made their way through the ranks without truly proving themselves. in this sense, sanctioning bodies serve promoters and not fighters or the sport.

sanctioning bodies are a symptom of what's wrong with boxing. treating symptoms and not root causes will not help the sport.

fundamental change, the likes of which probably isn't realistic or practical in the short term, is what's required, unfortunately, to fix the sport.

removing sanctioning bodies without fundamentally changing the system would be like removing U.S. congress, because it's crooked. it might succeed in removing one crooked element, but at the same time it would remove the balance of power that congress maintains with respect to the executive branch. it would actually make things worse if the flaws in the system were not addressed.