The "PBF is a coward" bandwagon

"what they're really saying is that 'Nobody can be as good as Manny Pacquiao unless he's helped by something.' Maybe it reflects on Floyd Mayweather. Even if he believes that he's going to win, maybe he think that there's a chance that he won't," Merchant said."Again, from things that he's said in the past, to him, losing is worse than death because he's wrapped his identity up so much in the idea of not losing the fight. He's used that to try to deflect all of the criticism that has come his way from the boxing world and in the boxing media that he has avoided all of the real top welterweights to fight smaller guys. Being undefeated is so important to him, that maybe there's a part of this that expresses or reflects his concern."

 

He's always had great stamina.

 

Brain on hold? :notallthere: I shouldn't imagine so. What might be the case, however, is that unlike you, I form my opinions based on facts, not conjecture and speculation.

The facts as they stand is that Manny has never failed a drug test and that Floyd has never once in the past made a demand like the one he has made of Manny. These combine to indicate strongly, and certainly strongly enough that Pac's lawyers feel they would win a court case based upon them, to show that Floyd and his father have no right whatsoever to infer that Manny is taking illegal, performance enhancing drugs.

Your position, however, is based on pure speculation and has almost no basis in fact whatsoever. You have already asserted on more than one occasion that "Manny is on drugs" yet have absolutely no proof of this at all. Not a single iota. The only evidence to support this libellous claim is that a couple of Mayweathers have said he is taking drugs, Paulie Mallinaggi said that he is taking drugs, Victor Conte (a notorious liar and convicted scumbag) said drug tests can be beaten and 'a source' told some journalist that he is taking drugs.

Some people have suggested that the drug testing procedure is poor and perhaps it is, but if it is so poor why has it not been changed? You claim that it is to protect fighters who are on drugs. Yeah, that sounds like the most valid reason, doesn't it? Its all a big conspiracy to protect cheats... :bears:

If I use the standard of proof required in Court as a benchmark, I do so for a number of reasons. Firstly I am a lawyer and so it is a natural personal perogative of mine. Secondly because it is the most universally recognised method of determining innocence or guilt in any matter, especially when someone makes libellous comments about a person's character. Thirdly because sport itself has it's own Court of Arbitration who have the ultimate powers of determination in such matters. And forthly, perhaps the most pertinent of all, is that Court appears to be exactly where this is heading, in which case it is appropriate to examine whether or not these accusations would hold up there, don't you think? :dunno:

MTF

 

Great post as usual MTF.

 

Ditto that shit man.

 

Yep, my feelings exactly MTF :bears:

 

Ether

Mayweather groupies ain't touchin this.

 

Well put.

 

I will approach this. First off Sugar Shane never failed a drug test either but we all know that he was using the clear and the creme. So again just because a fighter does not fail a test does not mean he's not using PED's as for Shanes case.

Now unto the slander point. Now I may be totally off but how can one's opinion be slander. If I call you an idiot is that slander or is that my personal opinion about you (which I'm not calling you an idiot). And when has PBF ever mentioned specifically that Manny is using PED's. Just because he said that the Phillipines produces the best PED's in their country does not indicate nor does he say that Manny is using the drugs. Again that is his personal opinion. Now I don't know if PBF's actions by requesting stricter/random drug testing actually hurts Manny. He may lose out on $24-50 million in this fight which is by his choice but he still will not lose out on making money versus other fighters. How has Manny been hurt by PBF's request for increased drug testing? How has Manny been hurt by PBF stating that the Phillipines produces the best PED's? My thought is that Manny has not been slandered at all. If so how has he been hurt? And it ain't $40 million worth of slander if PBF is found to be guilty of slander. I'll Holla 5000

 

Mosely admitted to taking steroids, which makes his case entirely different.

There is an extremely fine line between opinion (which is legally allowed through free speech laws) and slander/libel/defamation (which is not). You are allowed an opinion on pretty much anything, but if your opinion is published (slander/libel), is false (defamatory) and causes damage you can become legally liable, or at least you are in English Law and I presume the position is pretty much the same in the US as our legal systems are extremely similar.

Hence if I were to call you an 'idiot' and you decided to sue me, the burden of proof falls on you to prove each element of the above test to a juries satisfaction (a single judge in the UK) on the balance of probabilities (51%).

In Manny's case, he would have to prove that Mayweather said that he was on drugs (or implied as such as a reasonable person would interpret it) and that he is not (his 100% success rate in drug tests to date would suffice), that this was published (online is as good as anywhere for this purpose) and that it caused him damage (either fiscally as a loss of future earnings or to his 'good character' and/or reputation).

MTF

 

you didn't approach his response , what he is saying their is no proof that pacquiao has used peds. shane mosley admitting he used peds doesnt mean pacquaio used peds.

now on the slander point, (opinion) it depends on the jurisdiction, however The United States Supreme Court has rejected the argument that a separate opinion privilege existed against libel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkovich_v._Lorain_Journal_Co..

 

After Conte's paperwork was found out. Had that not happened we wouldn't know Mosley cheated because he passed every single test the commission applied, just like Manny and Floyd.

 

You guys keep talking about Mosley like he just came out and admitted steroid use unprompted. They had the evidence of his use because raided BALCO. He knew that he couldn't lie to the grand jury.

 

This is my point. In any reports has PBF stated that Manny was using PED's. I don't ever recall him stating specifically that he is. Now I could be wrong but can someone provide a direct link where PBF says that he thinks that Manny is using PED's. Now if he hasn't come out and stated this how can he be sued for slander and defamation. And like I said even if he is sued how much has this hurt Manny when he can still get fights and make millions doing it? I'll Holla 5000

 

SO in other words you can cheat the test like Mosley did just as long as you don't have a paper trail or arent with BALCO. I'll Holla 5000

 

Because even if he doesn't say it directly he can still be liable if a reasonable person could infer it from the Floyd's behaviour:

1. Mayweather demands tests way over and above any standard tests

2. Mayweather and his 'team' allow this information to be made public

3. Mayweather allows these circumstances, and their apparent block on negotiations, to be made privy to the public and the press.

4. Many people draw from this information a conclusion that Manny is on PED's, as evidenced in press reporting and on websites like this one.

In short, you cannot avoid liability simply because you were smart enough not to say "I think Manny is on PED's".

MTF

 

When similar evidence of Manny's PED usage comes to light, gimme a call...

MTF opcorn:

 

See now you are changing the meaning of slander/defamation. There is nothing that I've read where if someone infers that they can be sued. All he asked was for more stringent testing. Manny declined and the fight is off. That's not slander nor is it defaming Manny's name. The public is the one that is coming to it's own conclusion as to why is Manny not wanting to take random drug tests. There is no law that stats that if someone ask another athlete to take random drug testing that they can be sued.

Here is a definition of that I've found of sland/defamation/libel.

Generally speaking, defamation is the issuance of a false statement about another person, which causes that person to suffer harm. Slander involves the making of defamatory statements by a transitory (non-fixed) representation, usually an oral (spoken) representation. Libel involves the making of defamatory statements in a printed or fixed medium, such as a magazine or newspaper.

When and in what news media outlets did PBF make a statement about Manny using PED's? When did he come out and state that Manny was using PED's? And like I said all he ask for was random testing. There's nothing in the slander law that states that PBF can be held liable for what the publics opinion is due to Manny avoiding the test. Infering or someone's behavior can not constitute a slander law suit. I'll Holla 5000

 

I dont remember the quote exactly, but I remember Floyd making a statement in an interview something to the effect of "Pacman coming up in weight and being so strong having something to do with the best PED's coming out of the Phillipines". Cant remember it exactly, but I think thats close to what was said.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA-W01zhHbM&feature=video_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9e-f8FnEx0&feature=related

Second link at the 4:30 mark
I think the FIRST Rugged Man interview where Mayweather calls in will be used in the lawsuit, where Floyd with regard Pacquaio's success in moving up all the way from 106 makes a claim that the Philippines has the best enhancement drugs.

Floyd has used PERSONAL psychological warfare before with the likes of Corrales. Bringing up his domestic troubles when he hit his pregnant wife and threw her downstairs. Remind him of what was going to happen to him shortly AFTER his fight with Floyd. He went to jail for 2 years. That was Corrales' frame of mind for the Floyd fight.

Never mind that he HIMSELF also had tons of domestic troubles, hitting women.

The problem is when his attacks are not TRUE, UNPROVEN and completely without substance.

 

Floyd is NOT a coward. This thread is daft.

 

Okay then, here is a proper definition of defamation, seeing as my attempt to prevent this from becoming a full legal debate has evidently failed ::

"Defamation is where the defendant publishes a statement about the claimant which reflects on the claimant's reputation so as to lower him in the estimation of right-thinking members of society or which tends to cause the claimant to be shunned or avoided"

Tort Law, Hodgson and Lewthwaite, 2005 at p391

Moreover, the defamation must "reflect on the Claimant's moral and social character" (Blennerhasset v Novelty Sales 1933 175 LT Jo 393)

The most pertinent part is "reflects on the claimant's reputation so as to lower him in the estimation of right-thinking members of society". In this case, the statements relating to Manny's refusal to take these tests, along with Floyds comments to that DJ about Phillipine PED's, can easily be shown to have lowered him in the estimation of right-thinking members of society, as evidenced by internet messageboards and journalists running stories about it and leading some to draw a conclusion that his refusal to take the tests means he is, in fact, taking PEDs.

It is quite obvious to me that tainting a professional sportsman with the taking of illicit drugs will 'reflect on his moral or social character'.

In the UK, defamatory material published by wireless telephony (i.e. radio and internet) for general consuption is libellous (as opposed to slanderous). This would include the 'Rugged Man' interview'.

Libel is actionable per se, that is to say that no special damage has to be proven: the simple existance of the libellous material is sufficient to succeed at law. This is because it considered a sufficiently serious invasion of the claimant's rights (Hodgson, 2005: 392)

Therefore, in order to succeed, all Manny has to do is prove, on the balance of probabilities, that he has been defamed in print per the definition above. Considering the response by some to his refusal to take these tests, and the fact that both the request and the refusal were made public, this would be very straightforward to prove against Floyd and his management team.

Bear in mind that this is the position at English Law and is not necessarily the same as the US, where the right to free speech is generally favoured over an individual's right to privacy. In the UK, the balance is somewhat more equal, and it may be that the definitions in the States are slightly different and that certain civil defences have been developed that I am not aware of. I am an English Lawyer, not an American one...

MTF

 

I guess there will be a meeting this tuesday with a judge mediator to help negotiations to a successful landing.

Let Floyd Jr, Sr., Roger Mayweather, Oscar, Schaefer, MAN up to their words and APOLOGIZE to Manny Pacquaio for their unfounded allegations.

Let Manny come to an agreement of random testing of up to 15 days prior to the fight adminstered by the Nevada Commission, IF they so desire.

MAKE THE FUCKING FIGHT HAPPEN!!!!!!!:warning:

 

Calling Floyd a coward is ridiculous. He's been fighting world champs since he took Genaro Hernandez's junior lightweight strap, and before that he was in the Olympics. Floyd may have a giant ego, but he's definitely not a coward.

/end thread.

 

PBF isn't a coward. He's something much worse than that. If only he weren't black, he'd be the biggest super-star on the planet. ::

 

PBF is a fighter with astounding courage. I still remember his fight with Chico Corrales, a murderous puncher.
Of course, PBF could've loaded his gloves, like some of Double's favorite fighters has done....but he hasn't done so.....
Of course, PBF could've taken dozens of pounds of PEDs, like some of Double's favorite fighters has done....but he hasn't done so.....
That, in my book, is courage of the highest degree.

 

Precisely MTF.

It's not just that Manny has never failed a drug test, it's that his name has never been linked to steroids in any concrete way, a la Mosley and BALCO.

Yet for people like Kenneth, chinese whispers and Floyd Sr are enough to make them believe Manny is roiding without a shadow of doubt ::::

 

I didn't say he's a coward. Worse, he's a scoundrel. Prove he's not.

 

I think PBF is a total opposite of a scoundrel. Prove he's not.

 

How could I possibly do such a thing?