Paul Malignaggi: "He's coming in drugged..." His thoughts on Pac vs Clottey

QFT

 

The very thing that makes what Pac did so amazing, and you just outright refuse to give him any credit. You instead make baseless accusations.

Floyd made a very safe and short stop at 140. Manny could have done that but with an Oscar fight being offered do you really blame him? Mayweather would have done the exact same thing. NOBODY turns down an Oscar fight.

 

You know what Manny used to be called? The Destroyer. I'm sure he was given that name because he puches like a girl.

 

i think nedal hussien was on PEDs

 

So Hatton WASN'T NOTICEABLY BIGGER than Pac on Fightnight????



REED::

 

Yeah, Hatton was bigger for sure. Hatton helped Manny knock him out though, by walking straight into that shot that put his lights out. That shot was just perfectly placed. Hatton was already stunned too, so it's not like it was JUST that one punch that did the damage.

 

Plus the main concussive force behind it was the fact Hatton never saw it coming, just like the shot Floyd hurt him with. Hell even the punch Eamon Magee hit Hatton with had him on queer street and noticeably hurt.

 

:dunno: Pac vs. Hatton took place at 140 and Pacquiao destroyed him with one punch...

 

It was irrelevant to everyone until Floyd opened his mouth. In fact I doubt anyone here ever questioned whether or not the testing in boxing was stringent enough. Roiders were being caught and we were all fine with it.

I'm not prepared to call Manny or anyone else a cheater until it's proven. People bringing up the court of law strawman are missing the point.

Outside of Manny refusing to be randomly tested up to Floyd's specifications, there is nothing to suggest he's on PEDs. We can talk about his string of wins but one questioned him until this point. No one was even suspicious.

Further to the FM fight, Manny even agreed to undergo the blood testing (up to 20 days before I believe) with a test right after the fight and random urine anytime. People say that Manny didn't compromise. Floyd wanted random blood testing. Manny agreed to testing with certain stipulations. Fight cancelled because Floyd didn't get his demands agreed to right to the letter and Manny refused to budge.

No one here has a single idea about how PEDs work which has been demonstrated quite well over the past few weeks. I admit that I know next to nothing about EPO or HGH but I did read an article (I'll try to find it) where it said the cutoffs MP agreed to would have been sufficient to detect PEDs.

I believe this fight will happen later in the year but as I said before, it is ridculous to suggest Floyd is being altruistic in his motives. Nothing in his history suggests that he cares about the state of Boxing. If he doesn't ask for this testing in every fight from here on out, it'll speak volumes.

As for Manny? He's most likely on some type of PED. If he agrees to the testing and comes out clean I doubt anyone will say he was always clean. If he's proven to cheat then a lifetime ban is more than appropriate. I don't know if he could be made to forfeit prize money but if so, that is also appropriate. His career has been tarnished and will be from here on out. Guilty or not.

 

I disagree.

This statement is the only part of the whole fiasco that I disagree with. I can understand your point of view even if I don't agree. The other side of this debate if full of 'think for yourself' arguements which is hilarious when you consider that we are doing just that.

 

For someone who goes by your moniker, do you really think that 20 days is all that is necessary? Lots of overkill in the olympics, dontchathink?

 

I'm watching professional Boxing, not the Olympics so your point is irrelevant. Olympic boxing involves headgear and a shitty points system.

Why weren't you worried about random blood testing for the last 20 or so years?

 

Because more and more athletes are testing positive or admitting to consuming PED's then they did 20 years ago. This is part of the reason todays athletes are better then yesterdays athletes due to all the supplements and PED's. I'll Holla 5000

 

No, he wasn't........I think Pac was as big as him in most departments, apart from penis size and stretch marks, which Ricky shaded, thanks to his being formerly-fat and white.

 

He brought his white chin into the ring with him too,..

I agree there wasn't that much of a size difference, but Pacquiao 'grew' unaturally quick ofcourse.

 

Thank you, I can respect this post. I disagree with much of it, but all I have ever asked (and then persisted to ask) of this forum was to keep your brain's switch in the "ON" position while you consider the Pac debacle. No matter how stringent your ethics about calling someone a cheat, or judging someone guilty of something, or how much you love Pac, or hate Floyd, the one thing just about everyone should be able to say is what I have bolded above. Manny is most likely on some type of PED.

The issue should not be getting to that... that should have been easy. The issue all along should have been "Where do you go from there?"

Should Manny be forced to take random Olympic style testing? NO.
Should Manny be declared "guilty" in a court of law of using PEDs? NO.
Should people on both sides of this stop even fucking mentioning a court of law? YES.
Should the state athletic commissions improve their testing to be more in line with the better tests available today? PROBABLY.
Is Floyd scared to fight Manny? To some extent, YES.
Is it unprecented at a high level of boxing for someone to ask for more stringent PED testing for their opponent? NO. See SRL/Hearns 2.
Yes, but isn't it still an odd request and a fight-killer? YES.
Will the fight probably still happen anyway? YES. $$$$$$$$$.

I would also like to address the baffling confusion people seem to have about PEDs as they apply to elite athletes. First - can people stop saying that PEDs can't be why Manny is crushing the best bigger fighters on the planet because if that were true then EVERYONE would just do the same thing and there would be 100 Manny's? That's idiotic.

Pac is an incredibly skilled, hard-punching fighter. He is very gifted. If we could somehow state that PEDs can improve a boxer by 20% (just as a hypothetical), then that means that most GOOD fighters who were already unable to go 6 rounds with a non-juiced Pac would still only be able to barely go 7 rounds with him. My point: you cannot take a shit fighter or even a decent fighter and make them all-time greats just with PEDs. That's ridiculous. Since the drugs can only help strength, stamina, recovery, possibly speed, then a high level of skill would have to already be in place to get much competitive advantage from them.

Isn't this just common sense? Guys in Olympic cycling test positive all the time, and a lot of times it's like the 163rd ranked guy in the world. So maybe before he was ranked 212th. He ain't beating Lance Armstrong even if he bathes in PEDs.

But when you take someone who was a very, very good fighter already and add a regimen of performance enhancers - that's when you might get the once-in-a-lifetime type of career. Also, please keep in mind that many of the drugs being most used in sports today require the option of putting on weight. In other words, to grow the body, build muscle, increase size, strength, and stamina. Thus most of these drugs are not even useful (and probably really dangerous) to use for someone who is constantly dehydrating the shit out of themselves and CUTTING weight.

So if you take someone like Pac and you have the ability to use PEDs to max out your body strength and gain maybe 20, 30 pounds.. it's perfect. With the drugs you are able to aid in maintaining your quickness and explosiveness and POWER as you move up 20%-30% in weight (something very VERY few boxers can do), and all the while you are adding power, strength, and stamina. Then you take the other side.. guys like Cotto.. who Pac now makes cut MORE weight (down to 145) than he usually has to struggle and tax his body to make (147), and you have perfection.

Every pound Manny gains (up to some limit, maybe 145?) = BENEFIT FOR MANNY
Every pound bigger opponent has to lose = DETRIMENT FOR OPPONENT

It is a good scheme, and it makes sense as it turns a guy who went a very respectable 45-3-2 with 34 KOs in his first 50 fights (not exactly a destroyer, but still very good), to a guy who is now undefeated, unstoppable, and has KO'd 4 of the last 4 bigger men he fought in brutal one-sided fashion, two of which were considered the best in the world in their weight classes.

I personally find this compelling, but of course none of this proves anything.... except as I said in the outset: Manny is most likely on some type of PED.

 

I don't disagree utterly with a lot of your post, but this last bit is an outright lie.

The reason why I (and others) took such umbrage with your earlier posts is that you stated flatly that Manny is on PED's. This was stated as fact when it isn't. It's a possibility and it is pure personal opinion as to how great a possibility that is.

MTF

 

I agree. It surprised me coming from Outlander especially, he was basically stating it as a fact, that Manny was on PEDs.

 

I wish Mayweather nuthuggers could learn how to think. One point I want to get across (as echoed by Mexican Wedding Shirt) I wouldn't be surprised if Manny were on every ped know to man. I have no evidence of this, but nothing would surprise me.

The point is Floyd Mayweather is not in any position to make unprecedented demands especially with his recent history of poor performances and poor opponents. Unless Shane MUST go through OLYMPIC testing , then it shows almost assuredly that Floyd clearly wanted not to fight Pac. It is a necessary condition otherwise the claims of Team Mayweather ARE EXPOSED. Shane is a proven cheat and Manny is not at this time of writing.


Thus Spake, Ikemefula.

 

I would have liked to see that to, but then I remember that Malignaggi would get a career high payday out of it, so I'm glad Pac didn't fight him. He shouldn't get REWARDED for his talking.

 

I'm glad we've finally reached a point where this can be discussed rationally. We were all disappointed that this fight was killed and emotions ran high on both sides.

Myself, MWS, Feebles and others have only ever argued that nothing is proven. We argued that there's no proof either way so it's too early to categorically state one or the other. I resented the implication that because I wasn't rushing to a snap judgement that somehow made me a nuthugger or someone unable to formulate my own opinion. It's the reason I have been so vocal on this particular subject. I like what Manny has been doing lately but I can't claim to be a fan of the boxer himself as I've only seen him in 3 fights. 2 of them very recently.

For my part, I've maintained that Manny is most likely on PEDs as I believe all top level athletes take SOMETHING to improve their performance. PEDs are in every sport (including the Olympics) and are a fact of life. Athletes will take substances that can be masked or are currently undetectable and then move on once testing catches up. I don't think anyone has argued that Boxing doesn't need stronger testing, only that to kill the biggest fight in boxing over it is a travesty.

All of the quoted points I am in agreement with aside from point 4. I think that stronger testing should be implemented now that PEDs have been brought to light so strongly. If this was Floyd's intent, then he deserves high praise. I do question his motives however.

This is a boxing forum there will always be opposing sides in any subject. It's speaks volumes about the importance of this fight that some of the most rational guys on here have resorted to insults rather than clear heads. That it can still stir us up so much proves that Boxing is still strong.

This fight has to happen. It really does. Even if either guy loses their next fight. This is the one we're owed as fans who stuck by no matter what. Bad decisions. Boxers testing dirty. Hundreds of meaningless titles. Boxers avoiding top contenders. Mainstream media ignorance. All of this fades into nothing once a big fight is signed.

The analysis of styles. The hypotheticals. The Tale of the Tape. That feeling in the pit of your stomach during the ringwalk. Being one of millions about to watch the purest test of man against man. It's very primal. Very strong. Even the national anthems that you hate so much all lead to that one perfect moment.

Two warriors standing in their corners alone waiting for the bell to begin the opening round.

That moment of anticipation. That's why I love this sport so much.

 

Your response to what I asked is a non sequitur.

I have been 'worried' about steroids since I've known about them in the early 80's. That is what dictates my position in the Manny PEDquia/Floyd Needles Mayweather saga, not any like or dislike between the fighters.

 

Exactly, this is my line of thinking, I've stated as such however many times. Yet I'm being accused of being a blind Pacman nuthugger? ::

It's insane.

 

Good post.

I've got to say though man, how have you only seen 3 of Pacquiao's fights? He's been one of the best fighters in the world for years :)

 

Floyd is probably afraid of Manny. Big deal. He is in a position to make the demand because he is getting in the ring with Pacquiao. That's gives him more right to make a demand than anyone else.

Of course, Manny has proven he is 100% afraid to fight Needles Mayweather...clean.

 

Whilst I don't quite share your cynical view of professional sportsman, I agree with much of this, especially the enboldened sections.

Nice post

MTF

 

Follow your logic. If that is the case and he really does care about his safety than why does he scrape a more lucrative fight for the sake of fighting a dirty fighter AND THEN SIGN TO FIGHT A LESS LUCRATIVE FIGHT WHO IS A PROVEN CHEAT? I am not sure I agree gives him the right. Sure a fighter can demand anything. It doesn't make it reasonable. To me I see this clearly as a contract issue.

1) Is PBF's demand reasonable based on the business standard of professional boxing?

The answer is clearly not. I am willing to change my opinion if you can cite a single example of fighters negotiating drug policy in boxing, I will review it.


Can two fighters agree to fight in a ring with no referee?
Can two fighters agree to fight with no gloves?


The answer is no. Why? Fighting is illegal and it is only legal when an athletic commission allows it and THEY set certain rules. It is not even arguable that Commissions do not set the drug policy or lack of one in boxing. The commission makes the call NOT the fighters? Hypothetically, I doubt this has been discussed, had Pacman agreed I think it is a distinct possibility that the athletic commission might have tried to stop the test from happening. Nevada would have to let a 3rd party control whether or not a fight would happen. Why would they allow this. Fights take much planning ,including mundane details like traffic control, permits and other civic matters. a FIGHT OF THIS MAGNITUDE I doubt would be left to chance. I know you are a contrarian but you are smarter than your arguments on this issue.


I don't know Manny? I cannot say nor can you that he is afraid to fight clean. I once was offered a job and was told I needed to submit a hair sample for a $50k a year job. I told them they were not paying me enough to make such a demand, even though it was a job that I really wanted. I had no doubt I would pass a test. I don't take any illegal substances. It was the principle. I told them they could have blood, urine and could test me randomly during the course of my employment, but taking a hair sample is completely invasive and frankly no way was I going to let a corporation get away with violating my civil liberties for a job in which i WAS WILLING TO take a paycut. There are other possible reasons other than fear of getting caught. By fighting Mosely, Mayweather is proving he just doesn't want the challenge of fighting a fighter in his prime.

 

Malignaggi is a bum.