Norton was susceptible to punchers: Foreman, Shavers, Cooney....but Evander wasn't that type of puncher. Holyfield had sharp punches without true one-punch tonnage and as such I'd put him in the Holmes, Ali category for power...a category that Norton had proven that he could handle. So what happens here. i see a tough gruelling fight for 12 or 15 rounds that ends in a close decision. Evander gets the nod. He's the better overall fighter.
Would tend to agree with that perspective, but as you say it has 'close' written all over it and I sure as hell wouldn't be wagering much on it. In my minds eye, I see Hoyfield's greater ability to hurt Norton being the deciding factor, despite not being a monster puncher, he had a great and very accurate offensive arsenal and the aggression to capitalize on every chank caused by breakthrough shots. But sans him finding himself able to periodically set himself ahead by doing that I can just as easily see Norton's shear awkwardness & busyness prevailing.
Holyfield hasn't the motor (especially after enduring Norton's consistent, & quite vicious, body attack) to win a fifteen-rounder, but an early knockdown on an unhurt Norton gets him the SD nod through twelve. A distant-dependent fight, in my book.
I don't agree. Holyfield, in his prime, has throwback stamina. Don't forget his classic at Cruiserweight with Qawi (over 15 rounds I believe). I believe that he maintained that stamina moving up to heavyweight as evidenced against Dokes for example.
Well, I don't agree with Holyfield at Heavy. What happened with Qawi was below 200lbs, & I don't believe Holyfield was capable of repeating the feat at Heavy, based on what I saw of him at the weight. Bowe showed what a consistently-applied bodyassault did to him. It was a somewhat softer area than his great chin, & Norton's bodyattack was certainly under-rated. Dokes put up a great fight, but he was there for the taking once Holyfield got on top of him offensively. I find it hard to believe Norton would be put into a similar position. Holyfield does most things better, but the style is awkward, he can't truly threaten Norton for the KO, & I don't see him as having the same lungs. The rounds could make a real difference.
Norton's body attack is often overlooked when folks discuss him and would indeed be the difference maker in this fight. Holyfield wasn't enough of a puncher OR a boxer to beat Norton. If Norton could find a way get to Ali and Holmes, he definitely could get to Holyfield. It's a good close fight for the first 10, but then Norton takes over as a result of his body work and Holy starts to fade. Holy makes him work for it, but Norton controls the championship rounds and wins by a clear decision.
In which fight at heavy, pre third bowe fight, did Evander show stamina that was noticeably different to what he displayed at Cruiser?
First of all, why do you always try to stack the deck with conditions? There's no reason to stop considering Holyfield's stamina before the 3rd Bowe fight except that Holyfield's stamina was lacking in that fight and it doesn't work for your arguement. Stopping there makes no sense because Holyfield went on from that fight to score one of the biggest wins of his career against Tyson. And if we do look before the 3rd Bowe fight, the first Moorer fight stands out. Holyfield went the distance, but he was running on fumes for most of the later rounds. And even in the first Bowe fight he was tired late and he got through the later rounds on heart. He did the best against Bowe in the second fight because he paced himself more and did more boxing than in the first fight or 3rd fights. And you mentioned the Dokes fight, but having more stamina than an aging and faded former champ whose career was ruined by drug abuse isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. And I'm not going to just consider what works for your arguement. Holyfield was only 32 in the 3rd Bowe fight, which isn't that old for heavies. Hell...when Norton was two months short of 35 he went 15 tough rounds with Larry Holmes and was the stronger fighter in the championship rounds. Norton's late rally made it a close fight after spotting Holmes the early rounds. The last round of that fight is a testament to Norton's (and Holmes') stamina to be still fighting at that pace in the 15th round.
Weren't there legitimate reasons for Holyfield's stamina issues in those fights? I think heart irregularities in the Bowe fight caused by an inflamatory reaction to medication and Hepititus B in the Moorer fight.
Weren't there legitimate reasons for Holyfield's stamina issues in those fights? I think heart irregularities in the Bowe rubber match caused by an inflamatory reaction to medication and Hepititus in the Moorer fight.
Evander was getting older and besides...he entered that fight with a virus. We're supposed to be talking the PEAK fighter when discussing mythical matchups. He was injured going into the first Moorer fight too. I'm not making this up....research it.
He had a habit of taking rounds off, & that, over twelve, with less active opponents than Norton. It's gonna cost him the fight over fifteen, IMO. It's a very close fight at any distance. Norton's greater activity & lungs win him a fifteen-rounder. I might favour Holyfield very close over twelve. He's the better man, but not by all that much, & it's clear his style is not the best to tackle Norton.
It's always "something " with Holyfield when loses a fight. Don't get me wrong...I've always been a big Holyfield fan...but there's always some excuse when he loses. And if I remember correctly...his heart issues that were the excuse for the loss to Moorer fight were later magically cured by Benny Hinn. Apparently all it took was a big check from Holyfield and...PRESTO...no more heart issues. The bottom line is that his stamina has been shown to be suspect at times at Heavy. And there's no way Holyfield tops Norton in stamina. I'm not saying that Holyfield was Earnie Shavers or Tommy Morrison when it came to stamina, but there is NO evidence that he has an edge over Norton in that department. There really isn't. Hell...Sly chosing Holyfield-Dokes as his example at heavy shows there isn't much to go on. If that's the best example of Holyfield showing stamina...able to outlast an aging and faded former champ whose career was ruined by drug abuse and never had great wind even during his prime...that isn't saying a whole lot. And if you also factor in Norton's comittment to body work, that would decrease Holyfield's stamina even more.
I think yourself and Ramonza make excellent points, the next time this match up gets posted I'll probably pick differently. I only brought up Holy's 'excuses' because if they were legitimate then those two fights weren't representative of his stamina at his best. Not because I think Holy's stamina was as good as Norton's. Since I was only about 8 years old at the time and everything I know about the issue comes from an HBO documentary on Holy, I brought it up as much as a query as a counter argument.
I give Norton a damn fine chance here. Unless you were a grade A puncher, Norton would drive you nuts. Holyfield had good power and accuracy on his punches but he was never a one-shot guy and Norton's problem was mental as much as anything. He'd freeze against the big hitters, expecting to get hit. Against everybody else he was game and he was a total handful. While I certainly concur with some of the other folks here about Holy's sometimes shaky gas tank, there is something to be said for the man's desire and his ability to come on in fights when he seemed to be out of it... that is what made him a great fighter, that extra intangible that so many of the great ones had. Norton was an excellent fighter, but not great, he didnt have that mythic ability... still its possible that Norton's consistent work nullifies the scoring damage done by a Holyfield rally, no matter how impressive it may be. Holy is the greater fighter, but I like Norton's style in this one and I give him the slightest edge
People rarely mention how vicious Norton could be when he didn't fear his man's power. Holyfield would dig his heels in though, it'd be tight all the way.
