Joe Frazier's an all time Great. He's the first guy to beat Ali. He's also beaten Oscar Bonavena, Jimmy Eliis and Jerry Quarry. David Tua never won a title but is remembered most for destroying John Ruiz in 19 seconds and for his great performance in a loss to Ibeabuchi. Who wins? In boxing, Greatness, isn't always relevant. Head to head you have two left hookers. Neither of which were particularly elusive, both were sluggers and one has the better chin AND the harder punch. David Tua is that one and as such he'll prevail by KO in the middle rounds.
Frazier wouldn't go bombs away with him, he would outbox him. And contrary to popular opinion he WAS a better boxer than David Izon or Oleg Maskaev and was capable to outboxing David fucking Tua.
:atu: Yeah I see Joe Frazier up on his toes, controlling the fight on the outside with his jab and potshotting Tua......
Frazier could absolutley outwork Tua and avoid his bombs enough to decision him... boxing isnt just jabbing and moving
No not bouncing on his toes and potshotting. Like Cdogg says, if that's your only conception of 'outboxing' then you have a very limited one. Just fighting smart, engaging and using angles and his feet enough to avoid a constant phone box war. Think Holyfield vs old Foreman or Duran vs Cuevas, not Ali versus Liston. Im sure he'd have some hairy moments along the way, but if you really don't think he was capable of out boxing David Tua or you seriously underrate Joe Frazier.
Frazier survives some dangerous moments to outbox and outwork Tua for a clear decision win. And yes, there is more to boxing that bouncing around on your toes and jabbing, moving and potshotting.
When has Joe Frazier ever tried (successfully) to avoid a phonebooth war? Frazier's style was to engage in warfare. Please give me an example where he tried to outbox (using whatever definition you wish to) anyone?
Frazier would win this the same way he beat up the bigger, stronger Chuvalo early on in that fight. At mid range, engaging in and out on his terms with his quicker feet and stepping back around at angles. Basic puncher-boxer stuff, which is all it would take against Tua. And once he felt Tua's power he would make sure his tactics STAYED that way instead of engaging more as the fight progressed like he could afford to do against Chuvalo and the chances that Joe lets Tua come back into the fight for his customary late round KO once he gets smoking are practically nil. Thats how I see it. I agree ostensibly it's a bad style match up for Frazier (like against any huge puncher), but when there's a gulf in class this big it leaves a lot of wiggle room for a guy to adapt.
Frazier buries him with the bodyattack. Absolutely buries him. Tua has only the punch --- that isn't enough. He hasn't the leverage, high-output intensity, or instincts of Foreman --- the only man to put Frazier away convincingly --- & he has never come near to beating a world-class opponent in his own time, much less an all-time legend. Tua quits on his stool.
Given a fighter that stands in front of him Tua has shown high output intensity, my friend (Ibeabuchi).
I cannot hang a man's career on one fight. In any case, that was a green Ibeabuchi --- who, even if some don't agree with me in calling him the most over-rated pug of his generation --- is immeasurably short of a seasoned Joe Frazier. Seems more likely to me Tua shows up twenty, thirty, or forty pounds overweight...again.
I still don't think he's good enough. It's such a phenomenal leap beyond anything he's ever accomplished. I can't support him with anything, really. I mean, at the end of the day, he is just David Tua. Nothing special, or to get especially excited about.
Anybody who picks David Tua to beat Joe Frazier is a fucking disgrace. Joe Frazier is about FIVE levels above anything that fat little fuck is capable of. Stafford, this thread is PATHETIC. MTF :shit:
Frazier is a good boy who keeps a quick, snappy pace, & I like him to force his man into retiring on the stool after about eight or nine rounds. He may struggle to really puncture Tua's chin, but I think his bodywork convinces Tua to completely shut up shop by about the seventh.
Reading this step backwards and without knowing who the thread started was...I predicted it would be either Double L or Sly picking Tua to win and talking nonsense....:laughing: Tua had a better chin than Frazier? Why cause he fought Ibeabuchi and fought like a bitch vs. Lennox Lewis?..Ibeabuchi isn't Foreman..not even close...
A good example of Frazier taking apart a capable big man with a hefty weight advantage would be Mathis. Mathis didn't have Tua's punch or whiskers, but he had a much, much broader array of skills, & despite extra weight, a better set of lungs than Tua. He really fought tooth-&-nail against Frazier's downstairs onslaught, rallying several times when hurt to the ribs before finally collapsing. Frazier had a motor which just wouldn't quit. His lungs were matched only by his courage.
Frazier's bodywork would be key. That's where Tua is most vulnerable. Byrd hurt him in the 8th round of their fight with bodyshots. Lampley may have gone nuts about Lewis's uppercut which "hurt" Tua in the late rounds of their fight, but it was actually Lewis's bodyshot which did the real damage. There's some other times where I recall Tua being visibly bothered by shots to the body, although I can't remember exactly which fight at the moment. Whatever. Frazier's the favorite in this.
Yes, Double L could easily have been this topic starter. Hell...he also recently said he couldn't decide who would win a Holmes-Tua fight.
Whatever... Tua would have FUCKED UP Joe Frazier. No doubt about it... Frazier would have gone to war with him, because that's how Frazier fought. Tua who is bigger, more powerful and had the better chin would have creamed him. That's not to say that Tua is the greater fighter...obviously not. there are people Frazier would have beaten that Tua wouldn't have (Tua wouldn't have beaten any version of Ali for example). But in terms of styles...Tua knocks Frazier into next week! Duran beat people who Hearns didn't (Leonard, Barkley)...and went the distance with someone who knocked Hearns out in 3 rounds (Hagler) but Hearns would have beaten Duran every day of the week and twice on sundays! Such is boxing my friends. Anyone who looks at this style matchup and picks Frazier, is basing this only on bias, not logic.
Hearns was a great fighter, Duran was a great fighter. Frazier was a great fighter, Tua was a rotund plodding left hook on legs. As I said, when the gulf in class is this great styles just become a NUISANCE not a determinant.
Nonsense. Was Barkley a "great" fighter? Was Kirkland Laing a "great" fighter? They beat Hearns and Duran. McCall beat Lewis, Douglas beat Tyson. Frazier is the most overrated Heavyweight championin the history of the division.
I don't think he is over-rated at all. I have him losing most head-to-head matches with the top ten or so of all-time in his division, but that's no shame. I don't think the consensus is to over-rate him. Where does he place for you?
As a blind biased defender of new era fighters I think Frazier is a favorite about 60:40 (so in reality it is more I guess). The longer the fight went, the more Frazier would take over. He had the better punch output, he defended better, he was better landing his shots. Most importantly his body shots would hurt Tua (great point by Erratic). However. Even though Tua does not the the strength and reach of Foreman to bully Frazier, he does hit hard enough to knock Joe down. And when Tua was in his prime, he went aggressively after his opponent when he got them hurt. Frazier, big puncher though he was, rarely scored one-punch KOs early, he needed to slow his opponents down some. So it is very possible that Tua would catch Frazier with something big in the early rounds and turn the fight in his favor. I would pick Frazier by I wouldn't bet money on it
Sly, you do have an incredibly basic idea of "boxing" and being a good boxer. Duran was an incredible boxer for example, but he boxed aggressively, came in with his jab, slipping shots, landing body shots, counter right hands etc. It's skilled boxing at it's best, just stylistically different from pot shotting/sticking and moving, which is clearly your idea of boxing. Joe Frazier wasn't close to Duran's level as a boxer, but he was a fairly skilled offensive fighter. He had good footwork, was pretty good at slipping shots and countering, good accuracy, timing etc. All that is boxing ability, he just used it in an offensive style, which complimented his build/stature. Frazier would beat Tua. Tua stands a vaguely realistic chance because of the power of his left hook, but I don't think he would land it consistently, and Frazier would beat him to the punch all night.
:atu: at Stafford for calling ANYONE out about bias. The only reason you are not the single most biased poster here is because Double L is still around. But recently you have been giving him a run for his money.
