Prime for Prime, give me Liston by mid round stoppage. TKO 6. In 66, 67 when they might have fought, give me Frazier, TKO 9.
Oh boy. We will now be "treated" to endless MMs from Sly pitting Frazier against every heavy in history and he will pick Frazier to be KOed in every single one of them.
Concur in both instances. Frazier never quite gets over running headlong onto that jab, & the subsequent blows (Liston was more accurate than Foreman, who missed Frazier an awful lot in their first encounter) dished out would be thudding, bell-ringing salvos. Frazier survives a little longer than he did in Kingston, but doesn't make it beyond the fourth, IMO. Liston was losing his punch by 1966-67, & had already lost both the killer instinct & the respect for conditioning. He would be too lethargic to finish a rising Frazier off early at this time, & not conditioned or determined enough to hang with him down the stretch.
bad style matchup for Frazier... if he could hang in there long enough, he might be able to turn the tables and get to Sonny late in the fight... but god he'd face such fire coming in, I cant see him being able to survive it... of course, expect Frazier to repeatedly get off the deck and try in this one... I dont know if any heavyweight outside Ali had as a big a heart
You know, I always thought Sonny was a good style matchup for Joe, but, I posted this elsewhere in the face of a lot of seriously PATHETIC Frazier underestimation, so I'll repeat here... Hut Hut asked me if I picked Liston to beat Joe. Here was my response: Not necessarily. I just find it curious that Frazier wins precisely ZERO MM's on almost every website unless he is matched with an out-and-out bum, in which case people begrudgingly pick him to prevail. I mean, who exactly did Liston beat who was even in the same class as Frazier? His best wins are arguably Cleveland Williams and Floyd Patterson, neither of whom would have beaten Joe in a month of Sunday's. Don't get me wrong here: I know Liston was a scary motherfucker and that he flattened a hell of a lot of guys. But the only guy who bounced Frazier around was Foreman, and he was an uppercutter and perfectly styled to beat Frazier. That was the shot that did for Joe and whilst Liston's was good, it was nowhere near as proficient a Foreman's was. Liston was a jab and hook man with the odd uppercut thrown in and no-one ever proved able to jab Frazier outta there. Against anyone not named Foreman, Frazier had an excellent chin. Frazier has a legitimate win over Ali in and around his prime (layoff permitting) in possibly the biggest fight of all time. No-one else does (Norton was a few years later). At the time he beat Ali, Frazier has a number of excellent wins (Chualvo, Bonevera, Ellis and Quarry to name a few) and was pretty much the unified champ in what is now considered a golden era of HW boxing. He knocked Ali down in their first fight with one of the hardest punches you could ever see, and as we know now, Ali has a quite incredible chin. Yet he never, EVER wins Mythical Matchups. It's always the same stuff about his 'face first defence' and his 'weak chin'. How about his punching power, his heart the size of a fridge or his outstanding body attacks and hooks? How would Liston, who folded against the first guy to show no fear against him (Ali), react to these things? The same Liston who refused to come out for the 7th against the guy that Frazier fought near to death in Manilla (and was rescued by his corner for his own safety) and the very same Liston who fell at the first opportunity in the Ali rematch courtesy of a punch a few people didn't even see? Fuck it: I'll take Frazier to take Liston's heart late. MTF
I'll ask again. Who has Liston ever beaten in the same class as Smokin' Joe was? The two times he stepped up to that class, he was found wanting... MTF :dunno:
So? Foreman had never beaten anyone in frazier's "class" before fighting the shoft squat limited left hooker....and we all know how that turned out. In fact, since Frazier..Foreman had never beaten another all time great (Ali KOed him).
I know. And then George turned up 17 years later all old and fat and tittied and all of a sudden its a Halcyon era for the division.
Are you drunk?? :: But really, I don't get where you were going with that comment because Foreman was criticized by pretty much everyone when he came back and wasn't considered anything more than a joke or a sideshow. The idea of his fighting for the title again, much less winning it, seemed an impossibilty. Kudos to Big George for proving the doubters (again....pretty much EVERYONE at that time) wrong and revamping his persona to become a bit of a folk hero...but it wasn't like he was welcomed back to boxing with open arms during the beginning of his comeback.
What's amazing is how everyone forgets how difficult Frazier could be to hit . In the first fight with Ali, the great one had a helluva time finding Frazier with even his patented jab. Was Liston more accurate than Ali? Was his jab, albeit in powerful, more educated than Ali's? And why does everyone always throw out Foreman bouncing Frazier around as evidence that everyone else would? In 37 fights against a virtual 'who's who' in possibly the toughest era in HW history, only Foreman knocked Frazier out (I know Ali-Frazier III but you get the point). So suddenly all the attributes that made Frazier great would disappear because he steps in against Liston? I think not. And how dare people forget that Joe handed Ali a clear, unquestioned loss in the first and most important fight between them. He beat the self-proclaimed 'Greatest' yet somehow he would fold against Liston? Personally I think Frazier could frustrate Liston and make him quit ala Ali only for different reasons. Joe would be difficult for Sonny to hit cleanly and Joe's punches would keep coming. Sonny would never be able to keep Joe's pace.
Liston is the one who is under-rated. The quitter tag is one of the most ridiculously over-wrought & misunderstood associations involving any fighter, in any division, ever. If Frazier's defense is under-estimated, so is Liston's accuracy.
The only fair answer to your Q is none --- though he did a sterling job of cleaning out a fairly deep division, which history has partly forgotten, which is a shame for Liston. Even so, it's equally true to say that the only time Frazier faced anyone really resembling Liston was Foreman, & the results were crippling. They were so bad, they might've ended, or permantly scarred, the career of a lesser man.
I couldn't agree more. However, Liston quit on his stool in his first fight with Ali. That statement is not ridiculous or a misunderstood association. It is a factual recollection of how the fight ended. Period.
Yeah, so in other words, as long as he could hit his opponent he wouldn't quit. Damn Ali for not playing along. Somehow qualifying it like that doesn't make it seem any better. Sorry.
I think you missed my point. That being --- Liston had no trouble exhibiting grit & winning fights when the opponent was there to be struck. I was making the point to illustrate why he wouldn't quit against Frazier, not to excuse the loss to Ali.
He had no trouble exhibiting grit and winning fights against average opponents. The first time he stepped in the ring with an all time great, he quit. The first time Joe Frazier stepped in the ring with a fellow all time great it was the 'Fight of the Century'. And he displayed real grit in the face of adversity as he handed Ali his first loss. Personally I don't think you can exhibit 'grit' when things are going your way. It's when things aren't going your way, as was the case with Liston versus Ali, that you really find out how mentally commited a fighter is. We found out.
Williams really took the fight to Liston, & hit him with some serious bombs. Marshall broke a green Liston's jaw, forcing him to fight for four rounds with virtually no ring experience at the pro level. Liston wasn't a quitter. I see no way for Frazier to beat him, based on their strengths, weaknesses, & styles. I guess we just disagree.
