Just how much credit should Floyd get if he beats Mosley?

Yes, I have pride, but then I can turn around and bite my own tail. Once again, It's a pity that you have been psychologically injured, collateral damage was not the intention, I find it very difficult to realise how fragile some people can be over the internet at times, Youtube must be an absolutely horrifying experience for you. I should remind you also that, I didn't quote your posts, you quoted mine,.. I didn't bring my nonsense to your attention,..instead, you popped up and informed me that you had been hurt, well, sorry to hear that mate,..

 

attacking one of my fav fighters kinda did the trick :fightme:

 

I said I knew he was drained? Where? Or that he was on weight a month before the fight? And what difference does what I know make? Did you know Pacquiao would be the bigger man on fight night? GTFOH! Not too much of a difference, right?

 

God this 'logic' does my head in. A factor like that is unpredictable going in, and even if somebody smarter than person X can predict it, it doesn't preclude person x from recognizing that was wrong about it afterwards.

It's like somebody saying 'you picked Mike against Douglas even knowing that his training camp was a shambles, so you can't bring it up to excuse the loss now'. It's totally nonsensical reasoning. It's like the kid at school 'the first time you heard that band you didn't like them - you can't like them now'.:dunno:

 

So according to you, the fact that he was on weight a month before the fight is a very significant part of his being drained, but you didn't think that before the fight? ::

Kenneth seriously, be consistent. If you knew he was on weight a month before the fight, why did you still pick him? Roach spotted the IV marks on his arm the day before the fight, and you still picked him.

You couldn't have thought the weight was that much of a factor, or quite simply - you wouldn't have still picked him to win the fight. But you did, so did many, many other people, therefore Pacquiao deserves credit.

 

Roach spotted it in the ring, actually - I went back and checked. I know you're slow but let's try to stick to the subject, which was your ridiculous claim that there wasn't too much of a difference between the Oscar that Floyd fought and the one Manny fought. You really stoop to this level of idiocy just to hold on to your cute little theory?

 

Non sequitur, much?

 

I don't even know how this became a debate about Pacquiao deserving credit. WTF?

 

Did he look more weight drained than you expected? ::

It was obvious he would be weight drained, making a weight he hadn't made in years, and everyone still picked him.

Yet now, Pacman gets no credit because he beat a shot, weight drained Oscar. THAT pisses me off.

People obviously thought a weight drained Oscar would still be too much/too big for Manny. Evidently not, so Manny deserves a lot of credit for slapping Oscar around the way he did.

I actually thought Oscar looked better than expected in the first few rounds, before Manny really started beating the shit out of him.

And no Hut Hut, that wasn't an unpredictable factor going in, in fact it was VERY predictable. Oscar was making a weight he hadn't made in years.

 

Wow. Now I'm reading that Oscar coming in lighter than Manny wasn't unpredictable. I never knew. I thought someone having difficulty making weight would either come in over or balloon overnight. Now I'm hearing what transpired - Manny weighing more than Oscar on fight night - was "VERY predictable." Holy fuck.

 

You calling me slow, that's beyond absurd Kenneth, beyond the largest realms of absurdity.

And yes, the difference is neither here nor there. It's obvious Oscar would be weight drained, who cares? He wasn't up to much in either fight. Do you doubt that Manny would have given a 1 sided beating to the Oscar that Floyd fought?

 

Read your second paragraph...and you wonder why I called you slow.

 

Since when did Pac get no credit for that? It was a monumental win, he gets plenty credit for it.

 

Credit is what it's about. Read where it started, bigdawg's post - talking about the credit Floyd/Manny received for beating Oscar.

At the time, Manny received a LOT of credit, for shocking everyone in his 1 sided beating of Oscar. Since then people have almost written off that win, ah, Oscar was weight drained, no big deal.

I'm just reminding you that almost everyone picked Oscar to win that fight.

 

It's predictable the weight would have been an issue, as you were enlightened to a month before the fight Kenneth, the signs were there that Oscar would be weak at 147.

When did I say Oscar coming in lighter than Manny wasn't unpredictable? THAT is unpredictable, the weight affecting Oscar was entirely predictable.

 

And THAT is the point.

 

Read bigdawg's post.

It's become commonplace to almost disregard that win as "Shot, weight drained Oscar" - even though Manny was a big underdog, and most hardcore boxing fans thought Oscar would be too big.

 

Yeah but that's not the point. That's just what you want to bring up because it sounds a lot better than your other point. Which is that there wasn't really a difference between the Oscar that Floyd fought and the one Manny did.

 

The degree to which it effected him was always gonna be in line with just how weight drained and underweight he was. If he'd bounced back and came in at 154 like we all assumed he would, he would have felt and looked allot different. So the extent of the effect on his performance was totally unpredictable.

But nonetheless, it was a monumental win and Manny deserves and gets huge credit for it. Not only for the win, but even for taking the fight when only 1 fight previous he had been at 130lb. Its just a tribute to him that in the next three fights that he's gone on to supercede that win wins over Hatton at prime weight, Cotto & Clottey. So now people put it in the context of his career as 2nd 3rd in line. But you're right that people shouldnt forget how shocking that result was.

 

I didn't say there was no difference between the two, my point was it wouldn't have made much difference anyway, hence much of a muchness.

Even though I picked the weight drained Oscar to win the fight, I think it's clear now that the version of Oscar that Floyd fought would have been stomped by Manny too. That's what I mean when I say the difference is negligible.

Oscar wasn't weight drained against Floyd, but he was still slow, predictable, unable to pull the trigger or work the jab with any consistency. I'm fairly sure he would have got the same treatment from Manny, a one sided beating.

 

How can you say that not being weight drained to the point where you can't even get it back in water weight wouldn't have made a difference?

 

To be honest that's the only reason I'm arguing at all.

I didn't like bigdawg's almost disregarding tone towards that win, I've noticed others doing the same thing too.

My point is simple - don't forget how shocking it was when Manny bounced Oscar around the ring like a speedball, almost everyone picked Oscar to win that fight. And it's crazy to think, he was at 130 earlier that year.

 

Because Manny has the style to dominate the old version of Oscar, post Mosley 2. In his last few fights he was a pretty far cry from the prime Oscar.

He went from being a very good, and pretty speedy boxer puncher with a nice jab and nice left hook, to basically a plodding left hooker.

I thought 1 left hook from Oscar and Manny would be gone, that's why I picked Oscar.

 

Right. Nevertheless, you think an Oscar who might have been able to actually throw MORE than one left hook would have garnered the same result? You base your prediction on any matchup between the two using an Oscar who was outweighed on fight night by Manny Pacquiao. How many times did that happen post Mosley 2? Or do you just like making sweeping generalizations off one anomaly?

 

Yep, same result. Pacquiao was too fast and too agile for the aging Oscar. Oscar caught Manny with a clean left hook by the way, and it did nothing. You could write that off as it being a weak, weight drained punch.

But the way Manny has subsequently walked through the solid welterweight punches of Cotto and Clottey, Oscar could have landed a few more, it wouldn't have mattered.

The late 90's Oscar for example would have been a different story. He had good legs and a very good jab.

But the plodding, shuffling version of Oscar in his last few fights would have been no different at all. The difference in speed was ridiculous, and Manny's chin is rock solid at 147, something we had no way of knowing before the Oscar fight.

 

What shuffling version? The one that fought Floyd? The one that fought Mayorga? Oh, you mean the one that fought Hopkins? Wait..Forbes??

Whatever, man.