Joe Frazier, circa 1969-71, against the Riddick Bowe of around 1990-92. I am headed toward Frazier on a close decision through twelve rounds, with a fairly distinct possibility Bowe could get the job done. Thoughts? I'd presume, too, Futch would be in Frazier's corner.
Could go either way. I can't help but think of Two fights in Particular: Bowe vs Bert Cooper and Frazier vs Foreman Although Cooper isn't as good as Frazier and Bowe is arguably not quite as devastating as Foreman...Cooper was fairly tough and Bowe is bigger than Foreman. Makes me lean towards and early KO for Bowe. Bowe also has great stamina to match Joes but not sure how tough Bowe would be in a war. Overall gimme Bowe, KO 4
EXCELLENT good comparison in terms of size and style 5'11, 208, come forward puncher, as useful a comparison as it gets. Good shout. I'll watch that fight and come back with any thoughts.....
Random thoughts in the order they occur to me: 1) Bowe can't or won't fight tall for shit, here. He doesn't use his height or range at all and Cooper gets inside all day with no problems. 2) Bowe is simply nowhere near as physically strong or imposing as Foreman, in fact the 5'11 208 Cooper is forcing him back, most of the time. 3) As we know, Bowe's a very good inside fighter, he isn't gonna be overwhelmed there 4) Cooper is simply NOTHING compared to Frazier in any department, defensively or offensively. 5) 2nd Round Bowe attempts to use that range, with some success, that's a beautiful Louis esque jab when he uses it. Cooper a very stationary, passive target though. 6) Bowe starts letting Cooper back inside but gets the better of it with beautiful sharp counters before ending it with a picturesque 1-2. Bowe's success really depends on the consistent use of that beautiful jab. My Pick: Frazier TKO 14. Bowe doesn't have the strength or firepower to dominate Frazier from range & push him backwards like Foreman did and is too ready to neglect his beautiful jab and revert to infighting. Be a great, great competitive fight, but by the end I think Joe wilts him.
Bowe will be a very difficult fight for Frazier, early. the longer it lasts the better Frazier's chances, naturally, but consider what Joe will be dealing with early: Bowe outweighs joe by about 40 pounds. He has at least 6 inches of height on him and 8 inches in reach. Bowe's long hard Jab could upset Joe's rhythm and one of Bowe's best weapons, his right uppercut... would be the perfect foil for the ducking Frazier coming in. Add to that that Bowe is a dirty fighter, high activity (peep Holy-Bowe 1), very heavy handed and is also a great inside fighter...and Joe has to go through HELL just to make it out of the first five rounds You thought Frazier looked small against Foreman? Well Bowe outweighs Foreman by 20 pounds and has 2 inches on him in height. Frazier would have a (literal) mountain to climb
Good post. And I see that Frazier continues to be underrated by some. So, because Frazier/Cooper and Foreman/Bowe are around the same size, then Frazier-Bowe MUST turn out the way Bowe-Cooper and Foreman-Frazier did. Right?? Nope. Frazier was a MUCH better fighter than Cooper in every way. Cooper is the fighter you might hire for sparring if you had a Frazier fight coming up, but that's about it. Not even a poor man's version...more of a destitute man's version. And as for Bowe, he was big and had some skills...but he was never the puncher or imposing offensive force that Foreman was. There really isn't much of a resemblance between Foreman and Bowe as fighters. I'll take Frazier by decision. Bowe does well in the early going, and probably builds a bit of an early lead, but by the middle rounds, Bowe is looking for a second wind but Frazier is all over him. Frazier rallies from there and gets the fight even on the cards. Frazier pulls ahead in the championship rounds. Bowe is still competitive and firing back, but he is running low on gas and his punches are fewer in frequency and have much less on them. Bowe makes it to the final bell, but the scorecards are all for Frazier by around 3 points.
Prime Bowe was 230-235. So he was 10lb heavier than George at most (with a smaller frame for my money George trained to lose weight). And about 1 inch taller, not 2 (Foreman's a smidge under 6'4, Bowe a smidge under 6'5, IMO). So the size difference is NOT 40lb, it'd probably be about 25lb or less if both men are in peak shape, just like it was against Cooper. And since Bowe is just nowhere near as strong as George as we saw in the Cooper fight, I don't see the size difference as a fight deciding issue here. It's an advantage, like it was against the 205 Holy in their first fight, but it's not fight deciding.
Bowe stopped Cooper in two. I haven't seen it in years, but I don't remember seeing anything there that would work as evidence against Bowe's strength.
Cooper pushing him back consistently on the inside in the first. Edit: Also compare Holy's success in pushing old George back versus pushing Riddick back (and no, 30lb of fat doesn't make you stronger). Night and day. There's just no comparison to make, George was just the much, much physically stronger man. And that was a vital component in how he dealt with Frazier - by forcing him on the back foot. Riddick wouldn't be able to do that consistently.
I agree that size isn't everything...but it can be the deciding factor when they match up evenly otherwise and this is the case here.
disagREED. Bowe's size is advantage is what helps keeps him in this fight. I don't usually go for p4p discussion, but if they were closer in size, Frazier would win by an even bigger margin.
Thing is... Bowe was no scrub. He may not have been a celebrated 70s fighter and tussled with great names like Ali, bonavena, Quarry etc...but he had an all time great jab, very heavy hands, great combination puncher and inside fighter, one of teh best uppercuts you'll ever see and tremendous stamina for a man his size.
I never said Bowe was a scrub, so let's keep your usual exaggerations to a minimum. And I am fully aware of what Bowe brings to the table. And, if Bowe's resume is lacking, that's entirely on him. When he held the title, there were more demanding challenges available than Michael Dokes and Jesse Ferguson.
Yeah, and when those challenges came calling, Riddick managed to find himself avail with a trash can at a hastily convened press conference whenever he required. MTF :shit:
