BRAVEST fighter of all time...in terms of matchmaking

Who are the bravest fighters in terms of taking on the toughest challenges available to them all the time they were active?

Muhammad Ali MUST top this list.

He took on Sonny Liston when he was just 22. Defended against Liston again, Patterson, Cooper and everyone that was available to him then. In his 3rd fight back from teh forced exile he fought undefeated Frazier (before that Bonavena and Quarry), then fought the likes of Norton, Ellis, Foster before fighting undefeated monster Foreman. As Ali was getting older and slower he still fought the likes of Norton, Shavers, Lyle, Young, Holmes.

Crazy bravery, that's why he's the greatest.

By contrast...and for example, as Sugar Ray Leonard got older he didn't fight benn, Eubank, barkley, nunn, Toney, Graham, Jackson, McCallum, Watson. He never fought Pryor even when he was prime.

Instead he feasted on an older slower hagler who struggled with a tiny chinny Mugabi in his last fight (same mugabi that would be stopped by Thomas in his next fight and wiped out by Norris in future.) Fought the hapless Lalonde. Fought Hearns who looked shot after struggling with olijade and getting KTFO'd by Barkley. Fought a 50 year old Duran at 168 pounds.

So it just shows that Ali is head and shoulders above guys like Leonard for example in terms of bravery.

 

I'd put Holyfield very high if there was a list.

 

Leonard fought Benitez, Duran twice & Hearns in the space of what 2 years? Then came out of retirement with no tune up to fight Hagler! He could have fought the local milk man 15 times on ppv after that for all it mattered.

As Farmer Hogget said to Babe the amazing sheep-pig.....'that'll do..... that'll do'.::

Im sorry to say it but of great fighters Roy & Floyd top the 'most reluctant' pile. Oscar may well be one of the bravest, considering he had ALL THE FAME and money he could have wanted and so easily could have went down the Roy/Floyd route and stayed within his comfort zone. Great shout of Ali. He took the hardest available fight just about every time for about 40 fights in a row. Greatness.

 

agREED with all of this. Good post.

 

De La Hoya

 

Sly's criticism of Leonard is ridiculous. As you pointed out...leonard faced benitez, Duran (twice) and hearns by the time he was what...24 or 25?

Like you pointed out, he came back (the second time) against Hagler the best MIDDLEWEIGHT at the time. It's not as though he sought the best LIGHTWEIGHT (see where I'm going here?)

The only pass I give Roy is that he didn't have the fighters around him like Floyd and Oscar did. I give Oscar credit begrudgingly....whether I thought he won or lost he made the fights.

Lastly...please stop bringing up Aaron Pryor's name when talking about Leonard not fighting him. Everytime I hear that I automatically think guys watched "Legendary Nights" too many times...the Pryor-Arguello story. The Arguello fights put Pryor on the map. By the time the second fight happened Leonard was already retired with the detached retina. Stop repeating this bullshit. Pryor wasn't highly regarded until after the arguello fights.

 

My goodness, the parts of this post about Leonard are just ridiculous. I know you desperately want folks to believe that Mayweather = Leonard, but this post is lame even by your usual low standards.

Here's just a few examples...

Did you even SEE the Thomas - Mugabi fight or did you just look it up on BoxRec and see Thomas TKO 3 and decide that MUST mean Mubagi was chinny? MUgabi wasn't knocked out, he was doing just fine in that fight until the fight was stopped due to Mugabi suffering a broken eye socket from getting thumbed in the eye by Thomas. He ended up needing surgery after the fight.

Only in the world of Stafford does "Fight Stopped due to eye injury that required surgery" = "fighter is chinny."

Also, Hearns fought Olajide AFTER the Leonard fight. And Hearns didn't struggle with Olajide...Olajide went the distance, but Hearns won pretty much every round and won on the scorecards in near shutout fashion.

And Duran was the same age (not even close to 50) when he fought Leonard as Shane Mosley was when he fought Mayweather...the same Mosley that you thought was such a worthy opponent despite being 38 and hadn't fought in 16 months. Duran was only 5 months removed from winning a title at Middleweight against Barkely...one of those fighters you criticized Leonard for not fighting. So Duran beats Barkely for his title and Leonard gets criticized by you for fighting the winner (Duran) instead of the loser (Barkley). That doesn't make an ounce of sense.

And don't even get me started on Pryor being "ducked". What a joke.

Looks like you STILL aren't letting those silly old facts get in the way of your biased rants.

Geez...I could go on all day with the wrongness of what you posted, but unfortunately I don't have all day.

 

All of the Aforementioned R Excellent Choices...

REED Would Add Sugar Shane Mosley...

Instead of Stopping @ 140 to Take WINNABLE Fights w/the Likes of Kostya Tszyu & Zab Judah, Mosley Jumped TWO Weight Classes to Face DeLa...After a Confidence SHATTERING Defeat to his Ammy Nemesis, Vernon Forrest, Shane DEMANDED an IMMEDIATE RE...

Shane Beats DeLa in the RE & Instead of Going After BEATABLE Guys like Mayorga or Tito (Who was Coming OUT of Retirement) or Dela, for like 10-12 MILLION, he Takes a Much LOWER Purse to Face the More DANGEROUS Winky Wright...

LOSES to Wright, STILL Has SAFER Options Out There, yet Elects to 1nce Again Take an IMMEDIATE RE...

Faces Cotto when Everybody is Convinced that Cotto's the 2nd Coming of the TERMINATOR, Faces Margarito who TERMINATED the Terminator...Took On Collazo Right After Collazo Made Hatton Look Like Stir Fried SHIT...Was WILLING to Face the Young Upstart Berto & Actually agREED to Face Pacquiao @ like 142!!!!....

Obviously Shane just Lost to Floyd Mayweather...

There's a FINE Line btwn BRAVERY & STUPIDITY, when it Comes to Matchmaking...Sugar Shane Mosley Certainly STRADDLED that Line...



REED::

 

agREED. Mosley is a good example of a fearless fighter.

 

Good post. Biggest thing to keep in mind is that the bravest fighters, those who believe in themselves the most, take on the best competition during their primes, not after, like so many (RJJ)

Here's some more brave fighters:

Cotto - he'll fight anyone
Mosley - he'll fight anyone
ODH - he'll fight most anyone
Lewis - he ducked nobody (except Byrd; yeah right)
Morales
Barrera
JMM
Bradley - fights good comp

 

Nah...Leonard chose to fight Barkely victim, Hearns, instead of Barkley..before Barkley lost to Duran.

And don't be your usual hypocritical self. Don't you criticize Floyd for not fighting Margarito? When he beat Shane who wiped out Margarito. by your logic he should get a pass. Didn't you criticize him for not fighting Cotto? When he wiped out Shane who wiped out Margarito who wiped out Cotto and so by your logic he should get a pass.

You can't have it both ways you miserable lonely old man

 

Ricky Hatton

MTF

 

You're missing the entire point Sly. Leonard had already proved everything he needed to. He was fighting on what basically amounted to a part time basis and the Duran & Hearns fights were about settling old scores. They're perfectly analogous to Hopkins taking on Jones now instead of Dawson. Is Hopkins a coward too?

(And yes I know Leonard was younger than Hopkins is now but the arc of each career is individual, Leonard was winding down in the late 80s having done the bulk of his significant work, just like Hops is now. Bringing up Leonard as a coward in the match making department on the basis of what he did after the Hagler fight is beyond absurd)

 

Sly, would you have listed Ali on the cowardly list if he'd never fought Shavers, Young or Holmes etc after Zaire, but had fought a bunch of profitable fights against irrelevant old timers instead? Would it have diminished the more important stuff he'd done up to that point one iota? I mean his legacy arguably wouldnt be quite what it is now (arguably) but would it suddenly make him a contender in your 'cowardly match makers' list. Im gonna be presumptuous and say 'hell no'.

No offense mate, but this slightly whiffs of your agenda of somehow trying to make Floyd>Leonard here.

 

REED has Brought this Point Up BEFORE & it Bears Repeating....

NOBODY has Done MORE in FEWER Fights than Ray Leonard Has...Dude had Exactly 40 Fights...When U Consider the # of GREAT Fighters he Fought & the DECENT Beltholders he Faced in btwn the "Greats", there's NOfuckingWAY U Can Criticize his Resume...

Again 40 Fights TOTAL!!!...

Chavez Jr., Hatton, Mayweather Jr., Mosley, Roy, Toney, Bernard & Many Others...ALL of them have MORE Fights than Ray Leonard, yet NONE of their Resumes Compare...



REED:nono:

 

No argument from me.

However it does make me wonder if Ray had a lot of fights, even against some of the lesser competition out there if his win/loss ratio would be just as glossy.

Sometimes just an off night against a well prepared hungry challenger can result in a big upset.

 

Hagler was the best middleweight when Ray fought him in '87, and Ray had been retired for over 3 years.

When Ray fought Hagler:
-Herol Graham had just lost to Sumbu Kalambay;
-Benn was just turning pro;
-Eubank had 5 pro fights;
-James Toney was a year away from his pro debut;
-Watson, 10 fights, no title, no name;
-Julian Jackson, recent KO victim via McCallum. In late '87, Julian won a vacant title. Do you think Ray was going to fight an unknown recent KO victim instead of Hagler, Duran, and Hearns for megabucks? That would be like Trinidad turning down Oscar to fight James Page.

-Only McCallum makes sense in terms of being avoided. He had already KO'd Jackson and won titles at welter and junior middle.

And you say that instead of fighting those guys, Leonard feasted on old, slow, undisputed middleweight champ Hagler??? Whatever you're smoking, sly...make sure to get me a bag! ::

 

I wasn't talking about when he fought Hagler...I'm talking about AFTER hagler when he was fighting Lalonde and hearns etc..

 

Nope. But nice try at a smoke screen.

It's amazing how you want everyone to bow to Mayweather as an all time great, but then also make excuses for him not making the fights he should have. Talk about being a hypocrite, you think Mayweather should be considered the best Welter in the world when he didn't fight the best fighters around him at that weight. You can talk in all the circles you want, but Mayweather should have fought Cotto and/or Margarito and not waited until Mosley was 38 and inactive before fighting him.

But at least you are predictable in your foolishness. when proven wrong you talk in circles and call names.

 

Ok, in 88, when he fought Lalonde:
-Toney turned pro
-Benn was a commonwealth champ with no name, still fighting British guys with losing records;
-Eubank fought on BENN'S undercards;
-Watson, 15 pro fights, no title, no name;
-Jackson, making his first few defenses of the vacant title he had just won;
-McCallum is still the only name;
-and it would have been tough for Ray to fight Pryor when Pryor was a junior welter and Ray was a retired welterweight/junior middle due to his detached retina.

Was Ray going to fight unknowns instead of Hearns, Duran, and Hagler? In case you don't remember, he was trying to get a rematch with Hagler.

You're way off on this one, sly. Let it go.

 

Ha! Fool! Wasting your puny facts on Stafford. It's much easier to just rattle off a list of names and claim they were "ducked" rather than to actually know something about the fighters involved.

 

Plus...

Ray was fighting at 160 and 168...McCallum was a champ at 154 at the time.

 

Yep. And he blew his best chance by losing to Kalambay.

 

It still blows me away that Kalambay beat McCallum and then got greased in 1 by Michael Nunn. ::

 

That was a genuinely freakish KO though, its still shocking watching it as there is no inkling of whats about to happen in the time before...probably lead to Nunn being overestimated (eve now) and kalambay being a little forgotten and underrated

 

:stir:

 

randy shields fought a whos who of 1980s welterweights undersized!

and got creamed by pretty much all of them

 

According to Meethefeebles, Amir Khan is right up there with them. ::

 

Emile Griffith fought EVERYBODY