"If you're fighting fair, you're not fighting to win," it was once said by a proponent of foul Boxing. This mindset, & its counterweight of being good enough to succeed within the rules, draws a polarising affect on fight fans, I've often noticed. Where do you stand on this issue? Is this a combat sport, opening the doors for limited fouling to be morally acceptable in your eyes, or are the principles of the sport important to you, sound in nature? Myself, one of the great draws Boxing holds for me, as someone who doesn't care for MMA, for instance, is the fact two Boxers meet with a pre-determined number of weapons, to which each have equal access to. In that sense, a great appeal of Boxing is that it is as much mind vs. mind as it is body vs. body. A battle of wills, beyond simple technique. This is why I shy away from MMA, as when one man is an established fighter in a certain area (kicking, grappling, & the like) it is too easy for him to gain a fight-ending upper-hand. Boxing is purer than that. Foul tactics, to my thinking, sully & dilute this aspect of the sport. I am morally opposed to illegal tactics in the ring. As someone of this viewpoint, I can think of no better instance --- from no better fighter, incidentally --- than a desperate Joe Louis' admirable act during his first encounter with Billy Conn. Late in the fight, trailing on the cards & struggling to cope for the most part, Louis eyes Conn's right arm become entangled in the ropes for a clear moment, opening The Pittsburgh Flash to an assault. The Brown Bomber awaits Conn untangling himself, & on they go. That, to me, is a grand act. I know there are plenty of notables who would disagree with me. Rocky Marciano ("This is Boxing, not Chess!"), Roberto Duran, Sandy Saddler, Wilfredo Gomez, among others. What about you? How do you feel about this subject? Vote!
I'm used to fighters bending the rules in there to their advantage, using some dirty tricks, I rarely pay it much mind unless it is extreme. Then I have more of a problem with it. Below are examples. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/f0AF57VMgL4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/f0AF57VMgL4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nb1y46FlbNM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nb1y46FlbNM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
Is this because Boxing is a combat sport, or do you advocate foul tactics in all sports you have an interest in?
I guess I've just become accustomed to seeing athletes bend the rules to the point that I'm basically indifferent about it. Michael Jordan pushing off a defender, throwing an elbow while taking it to the hoop, seeing an offensive lineman hold, wide receivers pushing off, boxers sneaking in low blows, etc.. I rarely even pay it any mind unless it's extreme. I'd prefer all the sports to be clean, but I don't expect it to really be like that.
agREED... REED Doesn't "Like" it Per Se, but Doesn't Waste toooo Much Energy BITCHING about Dirty Tactics Either...N Boxing, U KNOW what U're Gonna Get from Guys like Holyfield, Casamayor & Bernard Hopkins A-HEAD of Time (Pun Intended)... There's a Fine Line being Being CRAFTY & Being DIRTY & the Aforementioned have NO Problems TOE'ing it, CROSSING it & PISSING on It...But the Thing is, the Opponent can RETALIATE w/Similar Tactics AND the Ref Can Ultimately DISQUALIFY them for their Tactics... U Hit the Nail on the Head by Saying U're "Indifferent" about It...Ditto for REED.... REED:hammert:
If a wave of undesireable cheating white-europeans, filled with a potent new mixture of cutting edge performance enhancers, came along,.. and cleared out all American contenders with headbutts, lowblows, elbows, chronic cliches, and then ran the last 5 rounds out of each match to 'hold on' to thier prize,.. I really wonder if America would sort of............begin to think about it, under these horrific circumstances.
IMO fighting dirty is one thing that ruins the sport more than anything. It is ridiculous to claim that headbutting or elbowing is a part of style: such "style" is illegal and the opponent does not have to be prepared to face it. Also cheating fighters, such as Duran, are usually boring to watch
Nothing wrong with fighting dirty. What's wrong is if the referee allows it. All is fair in love and war.
In all honesty I have a certain admiration for SMART cheats. Guys who know where the ref is and can work it, sneak in an elbow or low blow/kidney shot on his blind side. But it isn't the cheating I admire per se, just the craft and awareness to know exactly where you are your opponent is, the ref is, etc. The clarity of thought & focus in that always applies to other impressive things in a fighter. Guys who cheat and get caught consistently usually suck in every area since they can't relax or think in there.
Agreed. This is a sport where the object is to knock your opponent unconscious with your fists before he does the same to you. You do everything you can to protect yourself and win, it's the refs job to ensure the rules are upheld not yours.
Unconscious or not, it's still a science, a beautiful thing --- & it is that, because it is removed & insulated from the type of assaults which dominate street fights. It's a lot easier to win fights on the cheap when you incorporate elbows, butts, low blows, & the like. That's not Boxing. That's not the sweet science. That's brawling, & it's a totally different game to the one I adore.
The problem with this way of thinking is though, why to draw the line to the referee. Couldn't you as easily say that loading glove is ok as long as you don't get caught and that it is commissions task to follow the rules, not yours. And for the simpletons: I am not saying that headbutting is equal to loading gloves, it is just that we have certain rules in the game and if we let some go, why should we follow others.
bad analogy. Loading gloves is something that occurs outside the ring..like steroids. The thread is about "fighting dirty"...in other words, what occurs between the ropes which the ref has control over.
Yes, which is why I said "why to draw the line to the referee". Loading gloves is a chosen behavior where you break the rules intentionally and boxing commissions should look after it. Headbutting is also a chosen behavior where you break the rules intentionally and the referee should look after it. Apart from the obvious difference between how dangerous these two is, what is the difference in principal?
I thought it was a fair analogy to draw, personally. Fighting dirty undermines the sport, IMO. It's a not a bar-room brawl, or even MMA. It's purer than that, & was intended to be as such from the very genesis...
Different principal there. During a fight a fighter should not be able to give instructions to the referee about how to handle his job and say for example that from now on you will call every shot to the beltline low. Rules must be followed and they must be the same for both sides, not so that one part decides them so that they fit him
:crafty: Can't you see the commission fights dirty? We've got the rule of no performance enhancers, but we've got the commission outright breaking the rule in some instances, and ordinarily neglecting to enforce this rule 24 hours a day. But Fraud's enforcing this rule,.. no illegal performance enhancers in boxing, implement the strongest possible test, perfectly logical, it protects the fighters, himself and his opponent. However,..I agree with you in this thread, and am just pointing out something I figure you should have agreed with earlier. :crafty: As for Hut Hut thus far in this thread,.." :nono: !!!!!!!!,.."
I agree within reason... I dont think a guy should headbutt all the time, or punch low all the time (Pedroza) because that's beyond cheap But I do agree, the Ref makes all the difference
What about Vargas' THUMB in Tito's eye prior to Tito hitting him low. Vargas fans don't want to talk about that....:nono:
