Let's highlight some of the lasting, grand old debates of generations past, & see where we all wind up. This could spark some great arguments. Here're a few for starters... Did Tunney need The Long Count? Who won Leonard-Hagler? Were Dempsey's gloves loaded against Willard? Was the fix in for Ali-Liston I? Sequentially, I'd say, "No," "Leonard," "No," &, "Not certain." Looks to me as though Tunney had it together ahead of what would've been the regulation 10-count, & could've arisen if necessary. I must've scored it a dozen times since it happened, & I cannot get away from 7-5, 115-113 Leonard. Monte Cox did a solid piece on the Dempsey Drama a while back which is worth a read. The test involving 60's Heavyweight contender, Cleveland Williams, was interesting. My suspicion is Dempsey went out & beat Willard on the level. Perhaps the most intriguing of all is Ali-Liston I. The focus is usually on Ali here, but Liston had significant potential motivations for giving up his title in '64, not just related specifically to Ali, but also within his own sphere of influence. I have to admit, it wouldn't shock me if this was an arranged fight. I've always had my doubts.
Did Tunney need The Long Count? No. You can clearly see that Tunney is fine after seven actual seconds and the referee's count of three. Who won Leonard-Hagler? Ugh. Hagler in a very close fight. Were Dempsey's gloves loaded against Willard? No. If they were loaded, he would have been messed up far worse. Or just KOed right away. Was the fix in for Ali-Liston I? No Fix for who? Coming into the fight, everyone was pretty much certain that the Nation of Islam had this fight fixed. Even Angie Dundee thought so. And when all this glove stuff happened, people were yelling at members of the Nation at ringside because they all thought they fixed it. Then Ali wins and all of a sudden people think the mob fixed it. I say no. Every theory is weak, and tampering with gloves is the worst way to go about fixing a fight.
Off topic but though Tunney didn't need the long count...Buster Douglas DID. Douglas wouldn't have risen if it had been a literal 10 second count IMO. Anyway... No Leonard (Hagler gave away the first four rounds...I had Leonard winning 3 of the last 8) Dunno No (Ali won fair and square..the fix was in for the rematch)
Maybe that's why Dundee wouldn't let Ali quit? "Look, just a couple more rounds ... trust me on this one!" ::
Did Tunney need The Long Count? No-You could see him waiting Who won Leonard-Hagler? Leonard-Hagler gave away the first 4 fighting orthodox Were Dempsey's gloves loaded against Willard? No.He hit Willard flush & often & Willard did not have a count to recover Was the fix in for Ali-Liston I? He tried to win, (was there stuff on his gloves?)
He looked pretty aware of his surroundings. I think he would've survived regardless. I scored it 114-114. Probably no for both.
Was Chavez-Taylor I Stopped Toooo SOON???... Was JC Castillo ROBBED in his 1st Fight w/Floyd???... Did Roy Jones REALLY Fight NOBODY???... Did Mike Tyson BITE Holyfield's Ear Out of FEAR or ANGER???... Did Aaron Pryor CHEAT (The 1 Panama Lewis "Mixed") to Win the 1st Fight w/Arguello???... WHY did Duran QUIT in the 2nd Fight w/Leonard???... Was Leonard-Benitez a PREMATURE Stoppage???... Was Doug Jones ROBBED vs. Cassius Clay???... These R Some Great, GREAT Boxing Debates Off the Top of REED's Head... REED:hammert:
Was JC Castillo ROBBED in his 1st Fight w/Floyd???... No Did Roy Jones REALLY Fight NOBODY???... Not exactly, but his comp could have been better Did Mike Tyson BITE Holyfield's Ear Out of FEAR or ANGER???... Anger, frustration, & (but still a bitch move & in a sense looking for a way out) Did Aaron Pryor CHEAT (The 1 Panama Lewis "Mixed") to Win the 1st Fight w/Arguello???... Not sure on this one but benefit of the doubt-no. WHY did Duran QUIT in the 2nd Fight w/Leonard???... Frustration at his own performance & knowing he wasn't gonna win and be embarrased in the process (bitch move-quit) Was Leonard-Benitez a PREMATURE Stoppage???... no Was Doug Jones ROBBED vs. Cassius Clay???... definately not
I tend to say no since Taylor didn't verbally respond, but I can see both sides to this argument. No. Castillo gave away too many early rounds. Maybe both. Fear of being stopped again, angry because he was losing again and also cut from Holyfield's head. Probably. Panama Lewis is not someone who deserves the benefit of the doubt. Manny Steward kind of ratted him out in an interview. http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=20737&more=1 He was mentally fucked and punked out. I suppose the ref could've let it go on longer, but the only difference is that it goes the distance. Leonard was clearly winning the fight anyway. NO.
Was Chavez-Taylor I Stopped Toooo SOON???... No. Chavez had incapacitated his opponent within the 36 minutes allocated - that's the ultimate objective of boxing, he won the fight Was JC Castillo ROBBED in his 1st Fight w/Floyd???... No. Great win for Floyd, the most impressive of his career, IMO Did Roy Jones REALLY Fight NOBODY???... Not a yes or no Q. His resume was solid, but the point in my mind he had insufficent motivation to make it better than sold. The general criticism of him is fair, IMO Did Mike Tyson BITE Holyfield's Ear Out of FEAR or ANGER???... Anger. But anger under stress is a weakness. Did Aaron Pryor CHEAT (The 1 Panama Lewis "Mixed") to Win the 1st Fight w/Arguello???... Yes. I think there was something fishy in there, but it was probably as much placebo effect as anything. WHY did Duran QUIT in the 2nd Fight w/Leonard???... Oh, the real doozy of them all. Duran's a complex character. I think he was ultimately frustrated and angry at HIMSELF for not being in the shape he could have been and he couldn't bear the thought of people, or most of all Leonard thinking Ray had proven himself the better man. When there seemed a genuine chance of him losing I think he just cut off his nose to spite his face, like a drunk throwing the table over when it looks like he was gonna lose at poker. He'd rather throw it away than let Leonard win it with him not as his best. Was Leonard-Benitez a PREMATURE Stoppage???... Slightly. Was Doug Jones ROBBED vs. Cassius Clay???... Never watched it the whole way through :(
Did Tunney need The Long Count? It certainly helped. He woulda gotten up, but the long count really mitigated the threat of the follow up. Who won Leonard-Hagler? Leonard. Were Dempsey's gloves loaded against Willard? No. Was the fix in for Ali-Liston I? Sincerely doubt it. Don't know though.
Mayweather-Castillo I: Castillo was close to getting robbed, but didn't quite win by a big enough margin for robbery to be bandied about. I had him ahead, & marketing may well've been a factor, but I could see a draw for Mayweather, so it wasn't an outright robbery in my book. Jones' Competition: It's not fair to say he fought no one --- that just isn't true. What riles people is that his ambition once he settled into the good life at 175lbs, with that luxurious HBO contract in hand, went south dramatically. Did he fight no one? No, that's not fair. However, he could've done quite a bit more. For all the bluster about Mayweather's opponents, they're still ten times what Jones was facing at a comparable time in his career. The Ear Bite: Anger. He was furious. Utterly outraged, & completely sick of Holyfield's success with the tactic of note. Aaron Pryor: "Gimme that bottle. The one I mixed." I can't see any way that could be interpreted as anything other than cheating, in the sense that water, & only water, is permitted in the corner. In this respect, yes, foul play was a-foot. However, in the spirit of the question, was there any real edge for Pryor from the bottle? I can't think of a substance off-hand which would travel through the bloodstream & affect the type of rapid boost legend attributes to this story. Duran Quitting: He was frustrated out of the fight, & his petulance came to the fore at the worst possible moment. Simple. The Leonard-Benitez Stoppage: Absurd. There was nothing Leonard was doing in those final seconds he hadn't done all night. Many rumours circulated after this bout regarding the referee's decision & gambling in Vegas. Who know? All I'm sure of is the TKO was a poor decision. Clay-Jones: At a bare-bones minimum, Clay took four rounds that night. Minimum. That right there precludes it from being a robbery in my book.
Also, on Chavez-Taylor I, that's very tricky. In one sense, I would say it is a twelve-round fight, not an eleven-round, fifty-eight second one...I am a firm believer in the notion Steele has every bit the right to stop a fight in that moment as at any other, & that's not even a debate with me. With that said, Boxing is a bad business. Corruption & the stench of undue influence cloud much of its history. I would not be surprised if Steele were influenced by King, so in that respect, you can't really dismiss it being a robbery, either. Steele had a right to stop that fight, but did King have his ear? It's a bit like these ultra-close fights which invariably go to the more marketable figure --- Pacquiao-Marquez II, De La Hoya-Whitaker, etc. Sure, it's not unfair to score for the guys they did, but at the same time, you can feel a favouritism if it's a close one, providing a grey area.
Did Tunney need The Long Count? No, I think it was quite clear he could have gotten up sooner anyway Who won Leonard-Hagler? Marvin Hagler Were Dempsey's gloves loaded against Willard? by modern standards, yes... by the standards of the day, which offered considerably more leeway? No, I dont think so Was the fix in for Ali-Liston I? NO WAY... Liston definitely took a dive in the rematch though
Was JC Castillo ROBBED in his 1st Fight w/Floyd???... I wouldnt say robbed, but I thought he did enough to win Did Roy Jones REALLY Fight NOBODY???... no, but there were fights he should have made Did Mike Tyson BITE Holyfield's Ear Out of FEAR or ANGER???... BOTH... fear that he couldnt beat him and anger that he knew he couldnt Did Aaron Pryor CHEAT (The 1 Panama Lewis "Mixed") to Win the 1st Fight w/Arguello???... As I have explained 7000 times to the braindead yahoos around here, if he did cheat it wasnt with cocaine, thats for sure WHY did Duran QUIT in the 2nd Fight w/Leonard???... nobody really knows, but he was clearly flustered Was Leonard-Benitez a PREMATURE Stoppage???... I think you have to give a ref his discretion, it wasnt a great stoppage but the fight was over anyway Was Doug Jones ROBBED vs. Cassius Clay???... no, he gave Clay a tough fight but at best I could maybe see a draw
