Definitely a close fight, as each could do things that bothered the other... I like Vargas by a close decision, his edge in strength would be a key
This is true. I dunno I'm kinda undecided about this one. Vargas was definitely the physically stronger of the two, and a better inside fighter, but Nando wasnt really a pressure fighter per say. He definitely wouldnt win a boxing match with Forrest. He'd have to force Forrest into a high paced war in order to win, and that would be mean walking through Vern's cross and uppercuts. I'm thinking a close fight, dunno for certain who I'd pick.
Smarter..but Vargas is stronger and more agressive...and since there's little chance of a knockout either way...you have to assume that Nando's agression wins the day...
because it's simply so! :: Ok...I'll give you the explanation. Forrest was pretty sturdy..Mosley, for example could make no dent in him. Sure...Mayorga stopped him but: a) i believe it was premature b) Mayorga's all out agression took Vernon by surprise. Vargas is more of a patient heavy handed guy, boxer puncher. He's not stopping Forrest. Forrest has decent power but not devastating. He's not stopping an undefeated Vargas (took Prime tito 12 rounds to do it). No stopping occuring in this fight.
Ok. So from your point of view, Vargas's durability was much greater prior to his fight with Trinidad, as opposed to afterwards? In which case, you're saying that Vargas, following his first defeat, was no longer in his prime?
Its pretty much a fact that Tito ended Nando's prime. After that type of beating, capped off by a brutal KO, a fighter is rarely the same again. Vargas looked like crap in the two fights following Tito, then after Oscar stopped him, he was basically finished. When Mosley got ahold him, he was damn near washed up. Personally I think that Shane, and Oscar would have beaten any version of Vargas, due to thier speed, but I think pre-Tito Vargas might have lasted the distance in losing.
BTW - I doubt theres a KO in this one, even though both could and would probably would hurt the other. Forrest wasnt much a finisher, and Vargas didnt have the big time power to stop a big time opponent, unless its a guy like Campas who he could hit at will. But Forrest is no Campas.
I did think Vargas looked weaker in his next outing after Trinidad, but honestly, he looked pretty sharp & formidable to me when he fought De La Hoya. He ran him close until the end, too. I was going along with the tide that Trinidad seemed to have wrecked Vargas...until I saw him against De La Hoya. Of course, now we know he was assisted in the bout to some extent, & it's true the drop-off is perceptible after that fight with De La Hoya (which I believe to be more mental than anything), but I'm not as convinced as all & sundry that Trinidad ended his best work. It might've worked out differently if he'd taken a less-difficult road in his career. He was always mixing it with the best.
I'm not arguing that Vargas wasn't the same fighter following the Trinidad fight - he certainly was not. Afterall, he'd been beaten with loaded gloves for 12 rounds. I'm just saying, he was far from invincible even going into the Trinidad fight - it's not like he'd proven he has a granite chin or anything.
And yet Mosley, who's barely been hurt his entire career, having faced the best opposition in the game, was out on his feet against Forrest like he didn't have a bone in his body? If you're going to give Vargas the benefit of the doubt in this one regarding his prime, you have to do the same with Forrest, whose shoulder was in almost constant decline throughout his career.
IT IS NOT A FACT THAT TITO DID ANYTHING TO VARGAS OTHER THAN DEFEAT HIM BY BEING THE HARDEST PUNCHER HE HAD EVER FACED I am so sick of hearing this "Tito ruined Vargas" crap
I agree, but his lack of killer instinct could have very well been his undoing. Sure, he dominated Shane in the first fight, but was a rare case where he showed any true passion in the ring. I think Vargas rallies from behind and finds a way to eke out a decision in this one.
Well, if not Tito, then Main Events ruined him. Either way, it's impossible to conclude after watching any of Vargas' fights post-Tito that he was the same fighter. The closest he came to showing flashes of his prime was when he was roided up for the DLH fight. He looked like crap against Rivera, in fact was nearly knocked out. Didn't look much better against the guy he faced after that (I think it was Shibata Flores?). Certainly didn't look good in any of his fights after DLH. All you have post-Tito was a guy who had to cheat in order to gain an edge - and still lost.
That's not surprising...guys like vargas who fight on emotion typically are gym warriors. However, in a real fight I still give the edge to Forrest. Prior to Tito the best he'd looked was against Quartey...Ike had his moments and buzzed 'Nando several times that night. Vargas had problems with Ike's jab a bit but fought well. A guy like Forrest who is a pure boxer and had a better right hand than Quartey, I think beats him. It's a good fight no doubt but I'd go with Forrest in a close but good fight. It's been awhile since I've seen Vargas-Quartey but I recall Vargas on his bike quite a bit.
Again I ask, what puncher did Vargas face pre-tito? Yory Boy Campas? dont make me laugh... Quartey?? nope... Trinidad was the first guy to really hit Vargas with serious fight changing power... Vargas was hittable and his chin was pretty average, thats a bad combo against a puncher like Trinidad... Vargas looked as good as ever years later in his loss to De La Hoya the main thing is that Vargas was below that level, thats why he lsot to those guys... he would have lost to De La Hoya the same exact way even if he had never fought Trinidad
I think this position is certainly arguable, as I alluded to earlier in the thread. Did Vargas not look roughly as good against De La Hoya as he had during & prior to Trinidad? Has his career not fleshed out the fact he was just a level below his best contemporaries, even at his best? I don't rule out the long-held belief Trinidad weakened him, but wrecked him? Nah --- he ran De La Hoya much too close for that.
Dude.... Both Campas and Quartey hit harder than Wilfredo Rivera...who almost knocked Vargas out in his first fight POST-Tito. He was a changed fighter..just accept it.
