Yes, time to revisit an old topic that hasn't been done in a while. Many who claim to be educated and knowledgeable suggest that the concept of a God is ludicrous. They say that it is kindergarten stuff akin to Santa Clause, Easter bunny and the tooth fairy. They say that it is a concept for those who need a "crutch" to lean on, or who need a simplistic explanation for the origins of life and the universe. It is claimed that if you pick up a science book and do a little research, then ALL THE ANSWERS are there, and you will realize that the concept of God is laughable and that science itself explains the existence of everything. The funny thing is...those that say this are in fact the naive ones, they are the ones that are believing in fairy tales that can be likened to Santa Clause. They are the ones who need a "crutch" to lean on. They are the ones that are accepting an ILLOGICAL explanation of the origins of the universe. Science, logic, philosophy and even mathematics dictate the existence of God. No other option is possible! Cause and effect! Every effect, action, occurence is DEPENDANT upon a cause. This is the FIRST RULE, the FOUNDATION of natural logic. Every ideology, belief, doctrine, concept, understanding etc, is based primarily on CAUSE AND EFFECT! So bearing this in mind, we can reject the concept that something came out of nothing without a cause. If there was ever NOTHING there would never be anything, since there are things, there was NEVER nothing, and if there was never NOTHING there was always SOMETHING! However everything that changes, is temporal. If it changes over time, it means that it is dependent upon time and if it is dependent upon time...it had a beginning. Therefore, the ever changing universe..HAD A BEGINNING. If it had a beginning, cause and effect denotes that it had a beginner! Since there was never nothing there must have been something that existed before the universe that caused it to become. I submit to you that the first cause was God. God may not be an old man in the sky with a beard...that's not important, what is important is that whatever God may be (an intelligent energy force/source or whatever)...he (it) HAS to exist, or with have a missing piece in the eternal equation of logic. Could the cause of the universe have been another universe...in a sort of ongoing cycle? Sure. But regardless...there had to be a FIRST CAUSE that started the cycle initially. Because if the cycle changes over time, it denotes that it had a beginning. What caused God? Nothing. He wasn't caused, because he didn't begin. God is not an occurence, an action....he is a constant. Logic doesn't dictate that he had to have had a beginning because the concept of God is that he doesn't change, and is therefore unaffected by time. Anything that doesn't change is unaffected by time, therefore is outside of time, therefore is eternal. SOMETHING had to be eternal, because as I said before, there was NEVER NOTHING!! Feel free to attempt refute my thoughts and ask me any questions. The Sly One has Spoken!!
Convoluted and contradictry post. If u can't spot your contradiction then drop the bottle. :shaneUD12Oscar:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Convoluted and contradictry post. If u can't spot your contradiction then drop the bottle. :shaneUD12Oscar: [/b][/quote] Please point it out to me. Perhaps it isn't a contradiction at all and I just didn't clarify myself properly.
Come on Sly. We've been through this one time and time again. Geez. You have to be pretty ignorant to think everything happened by chance or that we evolved from apes yet there are still apes. That's silly. The real question is who's God is True God. Cupey
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> The real question is who's God is True God. Cupey [/b][/quote] We can address that if you wish as long as everyone present first accepts that there is a God.
Two points I would like to make. First, humans are not advanced mentally enough to comprehend all that goes on in the universe, we can only speculate, our "logic" is restricted only to our knowledge of our solar system and a little bit beyond. For example, gamma rays seem to blow Einsteins law of relativity out of the window, in fact shatter it completely. If something so basic and fundamental can be proved wrong, so can pretty much any of our "logic", we know next to nothing in the larger scheme of things, so it's foolish to speculate. Secondly, if there is an "intelligent being" which created all in the universe, I sincerely doubt it is the God depicted in the Bible, or the Q'uran, or whatever. What about the belief in reincarnation Sly? That is just as, if not more, plausible than the theory of everlasting life.
Dont think about so mutch,it´s not good for your brain bro. Some questions cant be answer, this is one of them.
I liked Morgan Freedman's line in "the big bounce" "God is an imaginary friend for adults" I honestly honestly believe that if us (humans) survive another 200 years we will look back and laugh at all this "worship" It is nessary right now and although false it can still be positive
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> I liked Morgan Freedman's line in "the big bounce" "God is an imaginary friend for adults" I honestly honestly believe that if us (humans) survive another 200 years we will look back and laugh at all this "worship" It is nessary right now and although false it can still be positive [/b][/quote] There is NO WAY to explain the existence of life itself (forget the inorganic matter of the universe), with it's intelligent processes, without an intelligent creator. Inorganic matter cannot suddenly become alive, even the most primitive forms of life are infinitely more complex than the most advanced computer system. The Sly One has Spoken!!
As soon as talk turns to Politics, Sports or Theology, logic is the first thing to depart the region, never to return. -Marcy
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> I honestly honestly believe that if us (humans) survive another 200 years we will look back and laugh at all this "worship" It is nessary right now and although false it can still be positive [/b][/quote] You reckon? I don't! Science as a whole may give an illusion of progress, but the individual person on the street is getting dumber and shallower by the day. Most of our "progress" has just given us more toys to play with, less work to do and more ways to avoid using our brain. Another 200 years of intellectual atrophy will leave us in no positon to "laugh" at anything other than ourselves.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> I honestly honestly believe that if us (humans) survive another 200 years we will look back and laugh at all this "worship" It is nessary right now and although false it can still be positive [/b][/quote] You reckon? I don't! Science as a whole may give an illusion of progress, but the individual person on the street is getting dumber and shallower by the day. Most of our "progress" has just given us more toys to play with, less work to do and more ways to avoid using our brain. Another 200 years of intellectual atrophy will leave us in no positon to "laugh" at anything other than ourselves. [/b][/quote] ::
I wonder why people say we are living in a progressive society? Does anybody real think the world is getting better? I'm not sure what we've accomplished socially to think that. Unless drive-by shootings and gay marriages is progress I just don't see it Cupey
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Yes, time to revisit an old topic that hasn't been done in a while. Many who claim to be educated and knowledgeable suggest that the concept of a God is ludicrous. They say that it is kindergarten stuff akin to Santa Clause, Easter bunny and the tooth fairy. They say that it is a concept for those who need a "crutch" to lean on, or who need a simplistic explanation for the origins of life and the universe. It is claimed that if you pick up a science book and do a little research, then ALL THE ANSWERS are there, and you will realize that the concept of God is laughable and that science itself explains the existence of everything. The funny thing is...those that say this are in fact the naive ones, they are the ones that are believing in fairy tales that can be likened to Santa Clause. They are the ones who need a "crutch" to lean on. They are the ones that are accepting an ILLOGICAL explanation of the origins of the universe. Science, logic, philosophy and even mathematics dictate the existence of God. No other option is possible! Cause and effect! Every effect, action, occurence is DEPENDANT upon a cause. This is the FIRST RULE, the FOUNDATION of natural logic. Every ideology, belief, doctrine, concept, understanding etc, is based primarily on CAUSE AND EFFECT! So bearing this in mind, we can reject the concept that something came out of nothing without a cause. If there was ever NOTHING there would never be anything, since there are things, there was NEVER nothing, and if there was never NOTHING there was always SOMETHING! However everything that changes, is temporal. If it changes over time, it means that it is dependent upon time and if it is dependent upon time...it had a beginning. Therefore, the ever changing universe..HAD A BEGINNING. If it had a beginning, cause and effect denotes that it had a beginner! Since there was never nothing there must have been something that existed before the universe that caused it to become. I submit to you that the first cause was God. God may not be an old man in the sky with a beard...that's not important, what is important is that whatever God may be (an intelligent energy force/source or whatever)...he (it) HAS to exist, or with have a missing piece in the eternal equation of logic. Could the cause of the universe have been another universe...in a sort of ongoing cycle? Sure. But regardless...there had to be a FIRST CAUSE that started the cycle initially. Because if the cycle changes over time, it denotes that it had a beginning. What caused God? Nothing. He wasn't caused, because he didn't begin. God is not an occurence, an action....he is a constant. Logic doesn't dictate that he had to have had a beginning because the concept of God is that he doesn't change, and is therefore unaffected by time. Anything that doesn't change is unaffected by time, therefore is outside of time, therefore is eternal. SOMETHING had to be eternal, because as I said before, there was NEVER NOTHING!! Feel free to attempt refute my thoughts and ask me any questions. The Sly One has Spoken!! [/b][/quote] Sly, I have used this identical argument every time that the discussion of God has come up... and eventually it has slowly dawned on everyone that I have told.. yes.. there MUST be a God. Too many people get caught up in evolution, the Bible, re-incarnation, and other religious beliefs during the discussion of God. People need to realize that these are all simply human interpratations of something that is to us completely foreign. To believe in God, is not necessarily to be religious. To deny the existance of God is ludicrous.
I've used this argument too but it's never had that effect for me... it usually just leads to really exotic theories & outright denial by stubborn minded people...I finally concluded people already have their minds made up on things like this by the time they reach a certain age & I should stop stressing myself out trying to show them otherwise
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Sly, I have used this identical argument every time that the discussion of God has come up... and eventually it has slowly dawned on everyone that I have told.. yes.. there MUST be a God. Too many people get caught up in evolution, the Bible, re-incarnation, and other religious beliefs during the discussion of God. People need to realize that these are all simply human interpratations of something that is to us completely foreign. To believe in God, is not necessarily to be religious. To deny the existance of God is ludicrous. [/b][/quote] I couldn't have put it any better. great post.
The God religion tells us about? No. There's something bigger out there out of our reach of knowledge and understanding with whatever name you wanna give it, that I do believe. Just live your life the best you can and enjoy it because no matter how much you screw up, everything you do is your work and yours only. In the time we have here eveything we do is our own little masterpiece, nobody else in history could've done it but ourselves. And that's a very powerful thought IMO.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> The God religion tells us about? No. There's something bigger out there out of our reach of knowledge and understanding with whatever name you wanna give it, that I do believe. Just live your life the best you can and enjoy it because no matter how much you screw up, everything you do is your work and yours only. In the time we have here eveything we do is our own little masterpiece, nobody else in history could've done it but ourselves. And that's a very powerful thought IMO. [/b][/quote] :: Nice way of putting it. The fact that I tend to agree, is beside the point. -Marcy
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> The God religion tells us about? No. There's something bigger out there out of our reach of knowledge and understanding with whatever name you wanna give it, that I do believe. Just live your life the best you can and enjoy it because no matter how much you screw up, everything you do is your work and yours only. In the time we have here eveything we do is our own little masterpiece, nobody else in history could've done it but ourselves. And that's a very powerful thought IMO. [/b][/quote] :: Nice way of putting it. The fact that I tend to agree, is beside the point. -Marcy[/b][/quote] Thanks. :wink:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> I believe in God with all of my heart. [/b][/quote] And I am given to understand that you have his name inscribed under your avatar...
This is always a great one.. ha ha Marcy, I like your point about logic. What always is funny to me is that for people that blindly believe there is just nothing to be said on the matter. That's good. As I said, even if there isn't one, people need SOMETHING to believe in. It has even been suggested that our make up is such that Physically the way our mind works it is almost hard wired in there. To have a "higher power" Honestly in what I do and practice the existence of a "god" doesn't matter. It isn't really addressed. WHat is also interesting is the whole argument of "Intelligent life HAD to have a creator" Says who? and WHO created the Creator? If there is a "being" above all else and this being is "intelligent" then by that very argument he COULD NOT Have just "sprung to life" For all you that do believe in a higher power let me ask seriously.. "Do you believe in Aliens and if so does a "god" govern them too? I'm being honest when I say I am somewhat ignorant as far as mainstream church goes, Christians and all, So I don't know their view on this. Was life on other planets, other galaxies.. was that addressed in the Bible?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> I honestly honestly believe that if us (humans) survive another 200 years we will look back and laugh at all this "worship" It is nessary right now and although false it can still be positive [/b][/quote] You reckon? I don't! Science as a whole may give an illusion of progress, but the individual person on the street is getting dumber and shallower by the day. Most of our "progress" has just given us more toys to play with, less work to do and more ways to avoid using our brain. Another 200 years of intellectual atrophy will leave us in no positon to "laugh" at anything other than ourselves. [/b][/quote] Less than 100 years ago around 1926 or so the first national electric grid was in place We didn't have TV until '36 or so. We didn't have the internet really everywhere 15 years ago 200 years is a LONG time! A LOT has happened! To say we are not learning is silly. We now understand the brain better than ever. I think as science advances devout religious people will also fade. Science is proving more and more. I have no doubt that we WILL be able to capture dreams on silicon at some point. We are able to monitor the Brain in ways we could never dream of There is often talk of 19th century legislation meant to close the Patent Office because everything had been invented! We at some point thought there was NOTHING that we didn't have! We have no concept of what is to come. Either way to say 100% for sure weather there IS OR ISN'T a "creator" of some sort is ignorant.
In the end, does this discussion really have any bearing on anything at all? If God does exist - what impact does he have, off wherever he is? I can't imagine for an instant that he would pay even the slightest attention to our human fumblings and bumblings. Of course, humankind being the supremely arrogant types that we are, place ourselves at the centre and forefront of his attentions. After all, it took him only about 13 billion years to get around to making us. Obviously we're not his greatest concern, one would think. And of course, if he didn't exist, it wouldn't matter either. It'd be a silly semantic argument between people with too much time or brainpower on their hands which would have the same impact as a speck of dirt in the sea. Either way, the argument has no impact on us aside from getting people pissed off and worked up about something which, in no way shape or form, can we either prove or disprove. The existence of God is basically a human-created paradox. All it comes down to is belief. In the end, there are better and more important things to worry about - such as why we still feel the need to kill each other, cause pain to each other, and generally act like fucks all around the world. These sorts of discussions are much more valuable than theological or existential debates. But, that's my dumb take on things.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Less than 100 years ago around 1926 or so the first national electric grid was in place We didn't have TV until '36 or so. We didn't have the internet really everywhere 15 years ago 200 years is a LONG time! A LOT has happened! To say we are not learning is silly. We now understand the brain better than ever. I think as science advances devout religious people will also fade. Science is proving more and more. I have no doubt that we WILL be able to capture dreams on silicon at some point. We are able to monitor the Brain in ways we could never dream of There is often talk of 19th century legislation meant to close the Patent Office because everything had been invented! We at some point thought there was NOTHING that we didn't have! We have no concept of what is to come. Either way to say 100% for sure weather there IS OR ISN'T a "creator" of some sort is ignorant. [/b][/quote] There is more information around sure. Science as a whole knows way more - I am talking about individual, ordinary people. We don't need to think anymore. How many kids can add up or do long multiplication or division without a calculator? You used to have to know that stuff, just to get by in life or you'd be considered educationally subnormal. It won't be long before people on the whole won't be able to write coherent sentences. Already, the Internet, text messages and the like are eroding the basics of grammar and meaning. It might not seem like a big deal at the moment, but I know plenty of kids who think that the shorthand rubbish they send on their mobile phones will also do for writing letters to the wider world in general. Google searches, instant news and media opinion, mean that a lot of people don't ever really get around to learning the basics of anything. They take information out of context and don't have the fundamental educational tools to put it into a proper perspective, examine it, and arrive at their own considered conclusions. There is a huge difference between knowledge and understanding and the former is generally pretty dry and useless without a healthy dose of the latter. Even at this stage if you suddenly took away the average eighteen year old's Internet Connection, Calculator and Spell checker and dumped him back in the Fifties, he'd be considered a dunce. Yeah, he'd be able to waffle about computers, Video Games, DVD’s or whatever, but he'd never in his life have a clue as how to go about building one. Hell, he wouldn't even be able to use a simple formula to calculate the power consumption of a light bulb. I shudder to think what the next twenty years will produce, let alone the next two hundred...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Either way to say 100% for sure weather there IS OR ISN'T a "creator" of some sort is ignorant. [/b][/quote] By the way, I agree with you completely on this.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Less than 100 years ago around 1926 or so the first national electric grid was in place We didn't have TV until '36 or so. We didn't have the internet really everywhere 15 years ago 200 years is a LONG time! A LOT has happened! To say we are not learning is silly. We now understand the brain better than ever. I think as science advances devout religious people will also fade. Science is proving more and more. I have no doubt that we WILL be able to capture dreams on silicon at some point. We are able to monitor the Brain in ways we could never dream of There is often talk of 19th century legislation meant to close the Patent Office because everything had been invented! We at some point thought there was NOTHING that we didn't have! We have no concept of what is to come. Either way to say 100% for sure weather there IS OR ISN'T a "creator" of some sort is ignorant. [/b][/quote] There is more information around sure. Science as a whole knows way more - I am talking about individual, ordinary people. We don't need to think anymore. How many kids can add up or do long multiplication or subtraction without a calculator? You used to have to know that stuff, just to get by in life or you'd be considered educationally subnormal. It won't be long before people on the whole won't be able to write coherent sentences. Already, the Internet, text messages and the like are eroding the basics of grammar and meaning. It might not seem like a big deal at the moment, but I know plenty of kids who think that the shorthand rubbish they send on their mobile phones will also do for writing letters to the wider world in general. Google searches, instant news and media opinion, mean that a lot of people don't ever really get around to learning the basics of anything. They take information out of context and don't have the fundamental educational tools to put it into a proper perspective, examine it, and arrive at their own considered conclusions. There is a huge difference between knowledge and understanding and the former is generally pretty dry and useless without a healthy dose of the latter. Even at this stage if you suddenly took away the average eighteen year old's Internet Connection, Calculator and Spell checker and dumped him back in the Fifties, he'd be considered a dunce. Yeah, he'd be able to waffle about computers, Video Games, DVD’s or whatever, but he'd never in his life have a clue as how to go about building one. Hell, he wouldn't even be able to use a simple formula to calculate the power consumption of a light bulb. I shudder to think what the next twenty years will produce, let alone the next two hundred... [/b][/quote] good post! ::
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Less than 100 years ago around 1926 or so the first national electric grid was in place We didn't have TV until '36 or so. We didn't have the internet really everywhere 15 years ago 200 years is a LONG time! A LOT has happened! To say we are not learning is silly. We now understand the brain better than ever. I think as science advances devout religious people will also fade. Science is proving more and more. I have no doubt that we WILL be able to capture dreams on silicon at some point. We are able to monitor the Brain in ways we could never dream of There is often talk of 19th century legislation meant to close the Patent Office because everything had been invented! We at some point thought there was NOTHING that we didn't have! We have no concept of what is to come. Either way to say 100% for sure weather there IS OR ISN'T a "creator" of some sort is ignorant. [/b][/quote] There is more information around sure. Science as a whole knows way more - I am talking about individual, ordinary people. We don't need to think anymore. How many kids can add up or do long multiplication or division without a calculator? You used to have to know that stuff, just to get by in life or you'd be considered educationally subnormal. It won't be long before people on the whole won't be able to write coherent sentences. Already, the Internet, text messages and the like are eroding the basics of grammar and meaning. It might not seem like a big deal at the moment, but I know plenty of kids who think that the shorthand rubbish they send on their mobile phones will also do for writing letters to the wider world in general. Google searches, instant news and media opinion, mean that a lot of people don't ever really get around to learning the basics of anything. They take information out of context and don't have the fundamental educational tools to put it into a proper perspective, examine it, and arrive at their own considered conclusions. There is a huge difference between knowledge and understanding and the former is generally pretty dry and useless without a healthy dose of the latter. Even at this stage if you suddenly took away the average eighteen year old's Internet Connection, Calculator and Spell checker and dumped him back in the Fifties, he'd be considered a dunce. Yeah, he'd be able to waffle about computers, Video Games, DVD’s or whatever, but he'd never in his life have a clue as how to go about building one. Hell, he wouldn't even be able to use a simple formula to calculate the power consumption of a light bulb. I shudder to think what the next twenty years will produce, let alone the next two hundred... [/b][/quote] You're right. Alas, it's not so much that people are getting any more stupid - it's just that we're so used to having all this stuff around to do tasks for us, that there is simply no need for people to have to think about many things. Not only that, but the glut of information and the whole 'instant gratification' attitude means that people don't really want to sit down and think about something and figure it out for themselves. It's come down to behavioural habits around the country and many parts of the world, rather than people simply becoming more stupid. Unfortunately, reversing these habits and attitudes is nigh-on impossible now that they're entrenched.
